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 Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms 
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
you people are infuriating.

STOP MISUSING THE WORD "INTOXICANT"


i and many other have defined it for you according to countless reputable sources, and

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Intoxication - excitement, euphoria, elation, exhilaration...

THAT IS YOUR DEFINITION NOT THE DEFINITION AND IT IS INCORRECT
i'm so sick of defining it for you guys, i'm not gonna do it again. the internet is full of free dictionaries and encyclopedias, PLEASE USE THEM

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:41 pm
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Unread post Re: Are Magic Mushrooms haram?
insha wrote:
AuroraBorealis wrote:

Yes "simply making you feel good" IS a good enough reason why it IS haram.Are you saying that if it makes you feel good and it isn't addictive or isn't made in a lab is halal?
Doesn't dope and alcohol make the consumers feel good as well, so by that logic, it is okay to use both as long as you don't become addicted?

Intoxication - excitement, euphoria, elation, exhilaration...


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prohibited every intoxicant and muftir (every substance which slackens the mind). So that which excites and irritates the mind, body and heart is forbidden. "Whatever intoxicates in a greater quantity is also unlawful in its smaller quantity."


please don't give me that spiel again. if that is the case, you can't have sugar, caffeine, sex, etc. I'm saying if it's not already haram, simply being pleasurable doesn't MAKE it haram.

And I don't need an anonymous web report on mushrooms. I can speak from experience since I've had them before (remember, I reverted 6 years ago). The people who wrote those stories you posted probably already had mental problems if that is their experience with it.



I think we are misunderstand each other here. What makes it haram is NOT ONLY because it is pleasurable, but because it alters your state of mind in the process...you say well it makes me feel good so why is it haram? the pleasure per se isn't haram, but it is intoxicating, whether or not it gives pleasure or pain is irrelevant! How can you compare this to caffeine, sex, or sugar? There is no comparison. Yes maybe it's true that all 3 give you pleasure, but they do not alter your state of mind. I've never had hallucinations from drinking coffee, have you?

Can you engage in prayer while being high and having hallucinations?


Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:53 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
you people are infuriating.

STOP MISUSING THE WORD "INTOXICANT"


i and many other have defined it for you according to countless reputable sources, and

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Intoxication - excitement, euphoria, elation, exhilaration...

THAT IS YOUR DEFINITION NOT THE DEFINITION AND IT IS INCORRECT
i'm so sick of defining it for you guys, i'm not gonna do it again. the internet is full of free dictionaries and encyclopedias, PLEASE USE THEM


Am I misusing the word intoxicant? I did not make up the definition, it is from the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Definition of INTOXICATION
1
: an abnormal state that is essentially a poisoning <carbon monoxide intoxication>
2
a : the condition of being drunk : inebriation b : a strong excitement or elation
Examples of INTOXICATION

<there's a firm distinction between the moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages and overindulgence to the point of intoxication>
<the intoxication felt by two people who have just fallen in love>

In case Merriam is wrong:

Intoxication is the state of being affected by one or more psychoactive drugs..
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intoxication

A poisoning, as by a spirituous or a narcotic substance; The state of being intoxicated or drunk; inebriation; ebriety; drunkenness; the act of intoxicating or making drunk; A high excitement of mind; an elation which rises to enthusiasm, frenzy, or madness
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intoxication

Being under the influence of, and responding to, the acute effects of a psychoactive drug. Intoxication typically includes feelings of pleasure, altered emotional responsiveness, altered perception, and impaired judgment and performance.
http://www.addictionstudies.org/glossary_i.html


The earlier Hadith I mentioned: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashribah), Book 26, Number 3673)"


Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:57 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
To AuroraBorealis:

I am an experienced psychedelic user. I have taken approximately 20+ hits of LSD, often 2 hits at a time (double the typical dose) and I have tripped on mushrooms about 7 times, 3-4 times on 1/8 oz (typical dose) and 3 times on 1/4 oz (double dose), as well as having used DMT a few times and a couple 'designer drugs' that mimic LSD without using any Schedule I substances.

To this extent, I think that I have the experience to say that the quotations of drug trips that you have posted are not the typical, or even atypical response to psychedelics. People do not just "black out" and wake up 8 hours later. The typical bad trip - and mind you, a bad trip is incredibly rare; I've only had a bad trip for appx. 2 hours total of all the hours I have spent under the influence of psychedelics, where a typical trip lasts 8-10 hours - generally makes the user fearful, not angry and violent.

It is often that the users of psychedelics feel more in-tune with the world around them and often feel more sympathetic and empathetic to the feelings of those around them.

There is nothing inherently bad with psychedelics; I do not believe they are for everyone, but for those that seek to do them, they will often have a great time and may even find their religious beliefs strengthened, should they hold any.




Finally, you use the word intoxication which requires poison. Psilocybin mushrooms are non-toxic and there is no known lethal dose, or at least none that could be feasibly taken. This also holds true for most 'typical' psychedelics drugs, while it does not hold true with 'designer' psychedelic drugs.


Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
Intoxication - excitement, euphoria, elation, exhilaration...

your original definition seen above was not the same as the other examples you provided.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Definition of INTOXICATION
1
: an abnormal state that is essentially a poisoning <carbon monoxide intoxication>
2
a : the condition of being drunk : inebriation b : a strong excitement or elation
Examples of INTOXICATION

<there's a firm distinction between the moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages and overindulgence to the point of intoxication>
<the intoxication felt by two people who have just fallen in love>

In case Merriam is wrong:

Intoxication is the state of being affected by one or more psychoactive drugs..
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intoxication

A poisoning, as by a spirituous or a narcotic substance; The state of being intoxicated or drunk; inebriation; ebriety; drunkenness; the act of intoxicating or making drunk; A high excitement of mind; an elation which rises to enthusiasm, frenzy, or madness
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intoxication

Being under the influence of, and responding to, the acute effects of a psychoactive drug. Intoxication typically includes feelings of pleasure, altered emotional responsiveness, altered perception, and impaired judgment and performance.
http://www.addictionstudies.org/glossary_i.html


this is how magic mushrooms affect the body

if you read that, and/or know anything about how the body processes magic mushrooms, it does not fulfill the requirements to be considered an intoxicant. so while i am in wholehearted agreement with the ahadith you provided;

Jabir ibn Abdullah wrote:
"The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashribah), Book 26, Number 3673)"


it is not applicable here, and it has been used already. please read previous posts before submitting, so as to avoid spamming.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:01 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
PassiveObserver wrote:
To AuroraBorealis:

I am an experienced psychedelic user. I have taken approximately 20+ hits of LSD, often 2 hits at a time (double the typical dose) and I have tripped on mushrooms about 7 times, 3-4 times on 1/8 oz (typical dose) and 3 times on 1/4 oz (double dose), as well as having used DMT a few times and a couple 'designer drugs' that mimic LSD without using any Schedule I substances.

To this extent, I think that I have the experience to say that the quotations of drug trips that you have posted are not the typical, or even atypical response to psychedelics. People do not just "black out" and wake up 8 hours later. The typical bad trip - and mind you, a bad trip is incredibly rare; I've only had a bad trip for appx. 2 hours total of all the hours I have spent under the influence of psychedelics, where a typical trip lasts 8-10 hours - generally makes the user fearful, not angry and violent.


It is often that the users of psychedelics feel more in-tune with the world around them and often feel more sympathetic and empathetic to the feelings of those around them.

There is nothing inherently bad with psychedelics; I do not believe they are for everyone, but for those that seek to do them, they will often have a great time and may even find their religious beliefs strengthened, should they hold any.




Finally, you use the word intoxication which requires poison. Psilocybin mushrooms are non-toxic and there is no known lethal dose, or at least none that could be feasibly taken. This also holds true for most 'typical' psychedelics drugs, while it does not hold true with 'designer' psychedelic drugs.



First, it realyl doesn't matter whether it's a "good trip" or "bad trip", the fact that it does alter your state of mind is what would make this thing haram.

Second, just because some people don't have extreme effects does not make it okay. Some people drink alcohol all their lives and never do anything bad, or they don't ever get drunk. It is still haram in Islam, no matter what the dose or how a particular person responds to it.

Also, regarding the toxicity of magic mushrooms; by definition intoxication can be several different things. It isn't required for one to be poisoned in order to be intoxicated. Bottom line altered state of mind. Plain and simple.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:14 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
i like how my argument counters everything you keep saying so you ignore it.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:21 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic -

Apparently the word intoxication has several different meanings.

The synonims that I used the first time around to describe intoxication were excitement, euphoria, elation, exhiliration.Those web-dictionaries that I quoted the second time around also use these words to describe it: high excitement of mind; an elation which rises to enthusiasm, frenzy, or madness.

Are they not SYNONIMS?

I don't see why you are yelling at me to look up the definition, when I gave you the correct one both times.
If you throw out your biased opinion, the answer to this question is quite clear.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:24 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
i like how my argument counters everything you keep saying so you ignore it.


I'm sorry but I see no argument from your side. You are also wrong to accuse me of using incorrect definitions of intoxication. I've made my argument clear the first time around, and now I just feel like I have to repeat myself since you are failing to understand it.


Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:27 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
By the way I was not ignoring you, I simply didn't have a chance to reply until now.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:28 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
First, it realyl doesn't matter whether it's a "good trip" or "bad trip", the fact that it does alter your state of mind is what would make this thing haram.

If it didn't matter if it was a good trip or a bad trip, why only copy/paste the experiences that can be seen as mostly negative? Why not talk about a positive LSD story?

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Second, just because some people don't have extreme effects does not make it okay. Some people drink alcohol all their lives and never do anything bad, or they don't ever get drunk. It is still haram in Islam, no matter what the dose or how a particular person responds to it.

Some people protect themselves with guns while others kill.
Some people use knowledge to brainwash while others use it to enlighten.
Some people overeat and become obese while others eat only to sustain themselves.

If you think just because there can be a bad side-effect derived from something, that that thing is inherently bad, then I'm sorry but you're incredibly naive. Everything can be bad if used in the wrong way.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Also, regarding the toxicity of magic mushrooms; by definition intoxication can be several different things. It isn't required for one to be poisoned in order to be intoxicated. Bottom line altered state of mind. Plain and simple.

Every definition you offered had poison somewhere therein. So, no. This is just an incorrect statement.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:52 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
this is how magic mushrooms affect the body

if you read that, and/or know anything about how the body processes magic mushrooms, it does not fulfill the requirements to be considered an intoxicant. so while i am in wholehearted agreement with the ahadith you provided;

Jabir ibn Abdullah wrote:
"The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashribah), Book 26, Number 3673)"


it is not applicable here, and it has been used already. please read previous posts before submitting, so as to avoid spamming.


i never saw your response to that, or any evidence that you know the ways mushrooms affect the body from a scientific standpoint. if you consider educated opinions biased i'm sorry for you. i'm just tired of hearing people hold strong opinions about things they know nothing about.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:58 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
PassiveObserver wrote:
AuroraBorealis wrote:
First, it realyl doesn't matter whether it's a "good trip" or "bad trip", the fact that it does alter your state of mind is what would make this thing haram.

If it didn't matter if it was a good trip or a bad trip, why only copy/paste the experiences that can be seen as mostly negative? Why not talk about a positive LSD story?

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Second, just because some people don't have extreme effects does not make it okay. Some people drink alcohol all their lives and never do anything bad, or they don't ever get drunk. It is still haram in Islam, no matter what the dose or how a particular person responds to it.

Some people protect themselves with guns while others kill.
Some people use knowledge to brainwash while others use it to enlighten.
Some people overeat and become obese while others eat only to sustain themselves.

If you think just because there can be a bad side-effect derived from something, that that thing is inherently bad, then I'm sorry but you're incredibly naive. Everything can be bad if used in the wrong way.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Also, regarding the toxicity of magic mushrooms; by definition intoxication can be several different things. It isn't required for one to be poisoned in order to be intoxicated. Bottom line altered state of mind. Plain and simple.

Every definition you offered had poison somewhere therein. So, no. This is just an incorrect statement.



The reason I posted those 3 stories is because they show how significant the effects can be from the use of these mushrooms. There are many more on that website, very similar experiences, some are seemingly positive though, with different experience every time. Good or bad they all prove obvious change in perception. This mere fact is why these mushrooms are catagorized as intoxicants, and therefore haram in Islam.


Anything can be used for good or bad, but we are talking about magic mushrooms here...


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:13 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
The reason I posted those 3 stories is because they show how significant the effects can be from the use of these mushrooms. There are many more on that website, very similar experiences, some are seemingly positive though, with different experience every time. Good or bad they all prove obvious change in perception.

If you understand this, then perhaps you should have posted some positive stories as well so as not to look like a brainwashed muppet that doesn't know how to think critically.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
This mere fact is why these mushrooms are catagorized as intoxicants, and therefore haram in Islam.

We've already provided facts as to why it's not an intoxicant, based off the definitions you provided.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:18 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
passive observer, thank you.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:23 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
peanutqpublic wrote:
this is how magic mushrooms affect the body

if you read that, and/or know anything about how the body processes magic mushrooms, it does not fulfill the requirements to be considered an intoxicant. so while i am in wholehearted agreement with the ahadith you provided;

Jabir ibn Abdullah wrote:
"The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashribah), Book 26, Number 3673)"


it is not applicable here, and it has been used already. please read previous posts before submitting, so as to avoid spamming.


i never saw your response to that, or any evidence that you know the ways mushrooms affect the body from a scientific standpoint. if you consider educated opinions biased i'm sorry for you. i'm just tired of hearing people hold strong opinions about things they know nothing about.



Going off that article you posted here, it seems like the effects can vary significantly, and leave a lot of room for severe effects:

"As with LSD, what happens on a mushroom trip varies by person, dosage and the type of mushroom eaten, as some are more powerful than others. "Set and setting," or the emotional state of the user and the type of environment he or she is in, play a big part in whether the trip is positive. Users who are in a poor mental state or a highly structured environment are more likely to have a bad trip, which is when you feel paranoid, anxious, nervous or even terrified instead of euphoric. "

I don't see what you're trying to convince me of. The drug obviously alters your state of mind. So are you trying to convince me that it does not? the effects it has on the mind are enough for me to view it as haram.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:27 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
PassiveObserver wrote:
AuroraBorealis wrote:
The reason I posted those 3 stories is because they show how significant the effects can be from the use of these mushrooms. There are many more on that website, very similar experiences, some are seemingly positive though, with different experience every time. Good or bad they all prove obvious change in perception.

If you understand this, then perhaps you should have posted some positive stories as well so as not to look like a brainwashed muppet that doesn't know how to think critically.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
This mere fact is why these mushrooms are catagorized as intoxicants, and therefore haram in Islam.

We've already provided facts as to why it's not an intoxicant, based off the definitions you provided.


You have NOT proven that they are not intoxicants. I'm still waiting for you to prove that it does not alter your mind. You are trying to justify it just because you use it personally. You still have not mentioned anything about its effects on the mind and what Islam says about this. Also, can we argue intelligently without name calling?


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:29 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
I don't see what you're trying to convince me of. The drug obviously alters your state of mind. So are you trying to convince me that it does not? the effects it has on the mind are enough for me to view it as haram.



sorry but i don't remember anywhere in the Quran or ahadiths that says "if it changes the way you think its haraam" i only saw that intoxicants are haraam, and that article, combined with what i already personally know about magic mushrooms shows me that they are not intoxicants and not haraam. so you know, i have a friend who hallucinates when she drinks soda. my father can't take an aspirin without being in pain for several days. turkey makes people fall asleep. so shouldn't soda, aspirin and turkey be haraam from your perspective?

Quote:
You have NOT proven that they are not intoxicants. I'm still waiting for you to prove that it does not alter your mind. You are trying to justify it just because you use it personally. You still have not mentioned anything about its effects on the mind and what Islam says about this. Also, can we argue intelligently without name calling?


first, its not our job to educate you. second, yes we have. pay attention.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:34 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
AuroraBorealis wrote:
I don't see what you're trying to convince me of. The drug obviously alters your state of mind. So are you trying to convince me that it does not? the effects it has on the mind are enough for me to view it as haram.



sorry but i don't remember anywhere in the Quran or ahadiths that says "if it changes the way you think its haraam" i only saw that intoxicants are haraam, and that article, combined with what i already personally know about magic mushrooms shows me that they are not intoxicants and not haraam. so you know, i have a friend who hallucinates when she drinks soda. my father can't take an aspirin without being in pain for several days. turkey makes people fall asleep. so shouldn't soda, aspirin and turkey be haraam from your perspective?

Quote:
You have NOT proven that they are not intoxicants. I'm still waiting for you to prove that it does not alter your mind. You are trying to justify it just because you use it personally. You still have not mentioned anything about its effects on the mind and what Islam says about this. Also, can we argue intelligently without name calling?


first, its not our job to educate you. second, yes we have. pay attention.


Huh? Where did you get the idea now that those examples that you gave are comparable with hallucinogens?
For the sake of time I'm not going to disect each one of them, and give you reasons why those are laughable comparisons because thats exactly what they are.

You are also changing my words around. I gave you the hadith in my previous post, and I also gave you a detailed definition and description of intoxication based on Webster's dictionary, not my own definition.

And just because you and your friend choose to believe that an intoxicant only means poison in the body, such as that from alcohol, does not make it the truth. So don't expect me to accept it as such.

It is not your job to educate me? Then don't throw around an argument that you cannot defend intelligently and factually.


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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
The problem is the argument you are making. You keep saying that it's an intoxicant (which it is not) because it alters your mind's perceptions.

If you want to call it an intoxicant, you'll have to prove it is toxic. If you want to prove that it is haram due to the effects of it, you will have to provide proof from the Qur'an and hadith as well as evidence of the effects of the mushrooms that coincide with the Qur'an and hadith.

Maybe it's just a matter semantics that is being argued.

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