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 Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms 
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
peanutqpublic wrote:
this is how magic mushrooms affect the body

if you read that, and/or know anything about how the body processes magic mushrooms, it does not fulfill the requirements to be considered an intoxicant. so while i am in wholehearted agreement with the ahadith you provided;

Jabir ibn Abdullah wrote:
"The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashribah), Book 26, Number 3673)"


it is not applicable here, and it has been used already. please read previous posts before submitting, so as to avoid spamming.


i never saw your response to that, or any evidence that you know the ways mushrooms affect the body from a scientific standpoint. if you consider educated opinions biased i'm sorry for you. i'm just tired of hearing people hold strong opinions about things they know nothing about.



Going off that article you posted here, it seems like the effects can vary significantly, and leave a lot of room for severe effects:

"As with LSD, what happens on a mushroom trip varies by person, dosage and the type of mushroom eaten, as some are more powerful than others. "Set and setting," or the emotional state of the user and the type of environment he or she is in, play a big part in whether the trip is positive. Users who are in a poor mental state or a highly structured environment are more likely to have a bad trip, which is when you feel paranoid, anxious, nervous or even terrified instead of euphoric. "

I don't see what you're trying to convince me of. The drug obviously alters your state of mind. So are you trying to convince me that it does not? the effects it has on the mind are enough for me to view it as haram.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:27 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
PassiveObserver wrote:
AuroraBorealis wrote:
The reason I posted those 3 stories is because they show how significant the effects can be from the use of these mushrooms. There are many more on that website, very similar experiences, some are seemingly positive though, with different experience every time. Good or bad they all prove obvious change in perception.

If you understand this, then perhaps you should have posted some positive stories as well so as not to look like a brainwashed muppet that doesn't know how to think critically.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
This mere fact is why these mushrooms are catagorized as intoxicants, and therefore haram in Islam.

We've already provided facts as to why it's not an intoxicant, based off the definitions you provided.


You have NOT proven that they are not intoxicants. I'm still waiting for you to prove that it does not alter your mind. You are trying to justify it just because you use it personally. You still have not mentioned anything about its effects on the mind and what Islam says about this. Also, can we argue intelligently without name calling?


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:29 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
I don't see what you're trying to convince me of. The drug obviously alters your state of mind. So are you trying to convince me that it does not? the effects it has on the mind are enough for me to view it as haram.



sorry but i don't remember anywhere in the Quran or ahadiths that says "if it changes the way you think its haraam" i only saw that intoxicants are haraam, and that article, combined with what i already personally know about magic mushrooms shows me that they are not intoxicants and not haraam. so you know, i have a friend who hallucinates when she drinks soda. my father can't take an aspirin without being in pain for several days. turkey makes people fall asleep. so shouldn't soda, aspirin and turkey be haraam from your perspective?

Quote:
You have NOT proven that they are not intoxicants. I'm still waiting for you to prove that it does not alter your mind. You are trying to justify it just because you use it personally. You still have not mentioned anything about its effects on the mind and what Islam says about this. Also, can we argue intelligently without name calling?


first, its not our job to educate you. second, yes we have. pay attention.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

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Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:34 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
AuroraBorealis wrote:
I don't see what you're trying to convince me of. The drug obviously alters your state of mind. So are you trying to convince me that it does not? the effects it has on the mind are enough for me to view it as haram.



sorry but i don't remember anywhere in the Quran or ahadiths that says "if it changes the way you think its haraam" i only saw that intoxicants are haraam, and that article, combined with what i already personally know about magic mushrooms shows me that they are not intoxicants and not haraam. so you know, i have a friend who hallucinates when she drinks soda. my father can't take an aspirin without being in pain for several days. turkey makes people fall asleep. so shouldn't soda, aspirin and turkey be haraam from your perspective?

Quote:
You have NOT proven that they are not intoxicants. I'm still waiting for you to prove that it does not alter your mind. You are trying to justify it just because you use it personally. You still have not mentioned anything about its effects on the mind and what Islam says about this. Also, can we argue intelligently without name calling?


first, its not our job to educate you. second, yes we have. pay attention.


Huh? Where did you get the idea now that those examples that you gave are comparable with hallucinogens?
For the sake of time I'm not going to disect each one of them, and give you reasons why those are laughable comparisons because thats exactly what they are.

You are also changing my words around. I gave you the hadith in my previous post, and I also gave you a detailed definition and description of intoxication based on Webster's dictionary, not my own definition.

And just because you and your friend choose to believe that an intoxicant only means poison in the body, such as that from alcohol, does not make it the truth. So don't expect me to accept it as such.

It is not your job to educate me? Then don't throw around an argument that you cannot defend intelligently and factually.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:50 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
The problem is the argument you are making. You keep saying that it's an intoxicant (which it is not) because it alters your mind's perceptions.

If you want to call it an intoxicant, you'll have to prove it is toxic. If you want to prove that it is haram due to the effects of it, you will have to provide proof from the Qur'an and hadith as well as evidence of the effects of the mushrooms that coincide with the Qur'an and hadith.

Maybe it's just a matter semantics that is being argued.

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Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:32 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
The effects it has on the mind are enough for me to view it as haram.

That would be great, if you could find legitimate claims in the Quran for why it is haram. As we have all stated numerous times, it needs to be toxic for it to be an intoxicant - Do you see where the word derives it's meaning?

AuroraBorealis wrote:
You have NOT proven that they are not intoxicants. I'm still waiting for you to prove that it does not alter your mind. You are trying to justify it just because you use it personally. You still have not mentioned anything about its effects on the mind and what Islam says about this. Also, can we argue intelligently without name calling?

Intoxicants =/= Altering your mind, although toxic substances which intoxicate you do alter your mind. Not all things that alter your mind can be deemed an intoxicant, specifically those that do not have a notable toxicity level.

I don't need to justify it, I'm not a Muslim. I can do whatever the @#$! I want with respects to your religious views. So don't try to slant the argument in that fashion.

I have mentioned plenty of things about the effects, but you're the one claiming that the Quran has statements supporting your viewpoint; the burden of proof lies upon you.

I would argue without name-calling if you actually read what we said, but apparently that's the only way to get through to you.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Huh? Where did you get the idea now that those examples that you gave are comparable with hallucinogens?

We're wondering where you got the idea that hallucinogenic drugs are intoxicants. :lol:

AuroraBorealis wrote:
You are also changing my words around. I gave you the hadith in my previous post, and I also gave you a detailed definition and description of intoxication based on Webster's dictionary, not my own definition.

And just because you and your friend choose to believe that an intoxicant only means poison in the body, such as that from alcohol, does not make it the truth. So don't expect me to accept it as such.

I will make it blatantly clear in the definitions you provided.

Number one
Definition of INTOXICATION
1
: an abnormal state that is essentially a poisoning <carbon monoxide intoxication>
2
a : the condition of being drunk : inebriation b : a strong excitement or elation

Number 2 (disregarding the wikipedia page because the wiktionary page directly disagrees by definition)
A poisoning, as by a spirituous or a narcotic substance; The state of being intoxicated or drunk; inebriation; ebriety; drunkenness; the act of intoxicating or making drunk
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intoxication

Also disregarding the addictive substances website because if you want to make your case that psychoactives as a whole are bad, then you're also making the case that we should allow those with bipolar depression, schizophrenia and other crippling mental diseases to walk around untreated.

The earlier Hadith I mentioned: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashribah), Book 26, Number 3673)"


INTOXICATION REQUIRES TOXICITY. MUSHROOMS DO NOT HAVE A NOTICEABLE LEVEL OF TOXICITY.

Now stop saying intoxication = mushrooms. Jesus.


Last edited by PassiveObserver on Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:23 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Passive: We have a word censor program in place for a reason; if you feel the need to curse, just go ahead and type it out. It's the only way we can find out what words we are missing. Thanks.



Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:04 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
PassiveObserver wrote:
Jesus.

:D

I find all this oddly amusing. It reminds me of "Who's On First?"

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Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:20 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
insha wrote:
PassiveObserver wrote:
Jesus.

:D

I find all this oddly amusing. It reminds me of "Who's On First?"

I would be amused too, if it wasn't so frustrating.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:36 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
Does anyone know the Arabic word used in the Hadith prohibiting "intoxicants" and if the definition applies to English?

It would be perhaps helpful to see the Arabic definition.

I also wonder if one could get a "bad trip" if they were doing Dhikr while tripping in a natural environment.

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Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:18 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
Rhythm of Earth wrote:
I also wonder if one could get a "bad trip" if they were doing Dhikr while tripping in a natural environment.

If you're muslim, you'd probably have an incredibly positive trip doing that.


Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:48 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
Interesting Question: Is THIS an intoxicant?



PassiveObserver wrote:
Rhythm of Earth wrote:
I also wonder if one could get a "bad trip" if they were doing Dhikr while tripping in a natural environment.

If you're muslim, you'd probably have an incredibly positive trip doing that.


Yes, I am Muslim.


Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:51 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
the last time i did mushrooms i had a really great time going on wup and just reading posts. like video game fun. one thing a lot of people will tell you about using mushrooms and other "hallucinogens" is that you often feel like a completely different, changed person the next day. like the experience has granted you a better and deeper understanding of the world around you.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:08 pm
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
Now we get the full picture. You are not Muslim - explains your anger and failure to understand this simple argument (from a Muslim's point of view). I was specifically addressing my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who I'm sure find an answer to this question pretty obvious. As for others, whether or not you agree or disagree I couldn't care less.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:32 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
the last time i did mushrooms i had a really great time going on wup and just reading posts. like video game fun. one thing a lot of people will tell you about using mushrooms and other "hallucinogens" is that you often feel like a completely different, changed person the next day. like the experience has granted you a better and deeper understanding of the world around you.


If it doesn't even inhibit your ability to read I don't see how it can be an "intoxicant",

in·tox·i·cate   /v. ɪnˈtɒksɪˌkeɪt; adj. ɪnˈtɒksəkɪt, -ˌkeɪt/ Show Spelled
[v. in-tok-si-keyt; adj. in-tok-suh-kit, -keyt] Show IPA
verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing, adjective
–verb (used with object)
1. to affect temporarily with diminished physical and mental control by means of alcoholic liquor, a drug, or another substance, especially to excite or stupefy with liquor.
2. to make enthusiastic; elate strongly, as by intoxicants; exhilarate: The prospect of success intoxicated him.
3. Pathology . to poison.

The number 1 definition is to diminish mental and physical control, to excite or "stupefy" someone, most often by alcohol. Number 2 doesn't make sense, how can being exhilarated be haram? Number 3 doesn't apply to Magic Mushrooms either, as they are not poisonous, they are not toxic, whereas alcohol is.

Almost all definitions say "to stupefy":
stu·pe·fy/ˈst(y)o͞opəˌfī/Verb1. Make (someone) unable to think or feel properly.
2. Astonish and shock

Sure, it is a Hallucinogen, you see things that you might not normally see, but if it does not diminsh mental capacity it cannot qualify as an intoxicant, especially since it is not toxic

Also, I'm sorry if I am just repeating what Passive Observor said.

AuroraBorealis wrote:
Now we get the full picture. You are not Muslim - explains your anger and failure to understand this simple argument (from a Muslim's point of view). I was specifically addressing my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who I'm sure find an answer to this question pretty obvious. As for others, whether or not you agree or disagree I couldn't care less.

(I assume you're talking about Passive)
I'm Muslim, so now you can take the argument seriously. So read it ;)

Peace


Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:07 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
Now we get the full picture. You are not Muslim - explains your anger and failure to understand this simple argument (from a Muslim's point of view). I was specifically addressing my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who I'm sure find an answer to this question pretty obvious. As for others, whether or not you agree or disagree I couldn't care less.

1) I'm not so much angry as I am frustrated and annoyed.
2) I have no problem understanding your argument, which is why I refuted it. The problem of understanding lies on your behalf, being unable to understand the numerous posters, Muslim and not, who have told you that psilocybin mushrooms are not intoxicants.

I wasn't trying to refute your religious beliefs. I was refuting your argument from a logical perspective. And if you 'couldn't care less' than you clearly came here to troll and not to discuss or present your understanding (and indeed, you have only presented your lack thereof)


Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:33 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
AuroraBorealis wrote:
Now we get the full picture. You are not Muslim - explains your anger and failure to understand this simple argument (from a Muslim's point of view).


So if I don't agree with you, does that mean I'm not a Muslim?


AuroraBorealis wrote:
I was specifically addressing my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who I'm sure find an answer to this question pretty obvious. As for others, whether or not you agree or disagree I couldn't care less.


If you could care less, then why debate? You put in a lot of effort for someone who doesn't care.

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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
Rhythm of Earth wrote:
Sure, it is a Hallucinogen, you see things that you might not normally see, but if it does not diminsh mental capacity it cannot qualify as an intoxicant, especially since it is not toxic



actually, hallucinogens don't make you see things that aren't there. everything you see is there, you just may not have been able to see it before. which brings me to why its important to use them responsibly. what hallucinogens do is open your third eye, and can allow you to see the spirit world/djinn world/other dimensions. not that this WILL happen everytime, guaranteed, but its a possibility, and this possibility should not be taken lightly. we must remember that evil djinn feed off of our fears, so if one were to take mushrooms in a way so as to cause a bad trip, they become that much more susceptible to the djinn's attempts to make you afraid.

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Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."

Then a man asked Rasulollah (pbuhaf): "I will help him if he is oppressed. But if he is the oppressor, how can I help him!?"

Rasulollah (pbuhaf) said: "You stop him from his oppression, for in that is help for him."

Anas bin Malik (r)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, #623


Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:03 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
peanutqpublic wrote:
Rhythm of Earth wrote:
Sure, it is a Hallucinogen, you see things that you might not normally see, but if it does not diminsh mental capacity it cannot qualify as an intoxicant, especially since it is not toxic



actually, hallucinogens don't make you see things that aren't there. everything you see is there, you just may not have been able to see it before. which brings me to why its important to use them responsibly. what hallucinogens do is open your third eye, and can allow you to see the spirit world/djinn world/other dimensions. not that this WILL happen everytime, guaranteed, but its a possibility, and this possibility should not be taken lightly. we must remember that evil djinn feed off of our fears, so if one were to take mushrooms in a way so as to cause a bad trip, they become that much more susceptible to the djinn's attempts to make you afraid.


That's why I suggested Dhikr and a beautiful evironment, to protect against the bad djinn, God is the only protector. As for the Third Eye I'm not contesting that the visions are real, the prophet Solomon talked to the birds and ants, but we cannot (at least I can't), because it is beyond normal seeing.

Peace


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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
Rhythm of Earth wrote:

That's why I suggested Dhikr and a beautiful evironment, to protect against the bad djinn, God is the only protector. As for the Third Eye I'm not contesting that the visions are real, the prophet Solomon talked to the birds and ants, but we cannot (at least I can't), because it is beyond normal seeing.

Peace


You know that prayer and dhikr alone can achieve the same thing without the chance of side effects? That's why I refrain from saying they are halal as well. But there are some people who are under such sever mind altering attacks through so many things, that taking this stuff will be a cure for it.

In my experience, people who are not Muslim and take mushrooms tend to be more insightful, philosophical, intelligent people. Also:


While I don't agree with everything he says, the interpretation of the scripture is accurate.

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Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:32 am
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Unread post Re: Muslims' opinions on Magic Mushrooms
insha wrote:
You know that prayer and dhikr alone can achieve the same thing without the chance of side effects? That's why I refrain from saying they are halal as well. But there are some people who are under such sever mind altering attacks through so many things, that taking this stuff will be a cure for it.

In my experience, people who are not Muslim and take mushrooms tend to be more insightful, philosophical, intelligent people. Also:


While I don't agree with everything he says, the interpretation of the scripture is accurate.


Yes, the same effect can probably be achieved without Shrooms, but my questions are:

1. Why did God create these herbs?

2. Is the effect really as enlightening?

and 3. Wouldn't a good environment/Dhikr pretty much remove the possibility of having bad side effects? Or do you mean long term problems like having to do with the mind? I haven't researched Magic Mushrooms and their ups and downs in much detail so I have no idea if there are any big risks.

I know that many people have this kind of thinking: Either you take psychedelics and you are not a Muslim, or you do it the "Natural" way and you are Muslim. Can't someone trip and be Muslim at the same time? So far it hasn't been demonstrated to be Haram.

That video is pretty interesting...but I wonder if someone could live off Magic Mushrooms, because wasn't that the only food the followers of Moses had?

Peace


Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:54 am
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