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 The REAL Mount Sinai 
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
no friend.

Just stating that He is the Messiah of the world, not only Israel. No priorities is all im stating.

I'm just admiring this debate between you and Scimitar, both providing good points although I dont agree with some of them on both sides.

As for the question of Him restoring Israel, only time will tell.

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Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:41 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
Dunpeal wrote:
no friend.

Just stating that He is the Messiah of the world, not only Israel. No priorities is all im stating.

I'm just admiring this debate between you and Scimitar, both providing good points although I dont agree with some of them on both sides.

As for the question of Him restoring Israel, only time will tell.


did i say he will ONLY come for israel? The reason i made the initial point is because the messianic prophecies are based on a Promise from God, to redeem israel (no matter what) through the remnant, amongst them. Obviously all of this is meant to take place in jerusalem. Mt sinai has nothing to do with it.

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Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:59 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
molvicorleone wrote:
Salaam bro scimitar,

It seems to me you're another biased muslim who'll deny earth and heaven just to prove a pitiful point. There's no connection between mt sinai and Isa As, never has been, he never spoke of that mountain and the hadith never connected him to it either, so I don't know why you need to insist.....but i'll answer you anyway.

I'm surprised you're asking me not to post wikipedia links. Yes they can be edited but it's not like the place 'at-tur' in jerusalem doesn't exist. It does exist.

Plus you've now gone and said that text from Ezekiel cannot be trusted or that it's been edited. This really makes no sense at all......because it is also connected with end times prophecy again related to the future of Israel (otherwise why would Gog and Magog be mentioned there? it's because the entire idea is that they are meant to invade israel). So the fact that Gog & MAgog are menioned in the Old Testament (the books of the jews) means it's clearly their business, ie it must affect them. If all of this took place on Mt sinai then it has nothing to do with jews, they don't live there, why would such a prophecy exist in their books...and that too in a messianic prophecy?


Now what's interesting is that although the Old Testament is constantly talking about Mount zion, the mountains of israel etc, in relation to the messianic era (the second coming of Isa AS) you've found it fit to ignore all of that for something you prefer instead which honestly has no basis anywhere in Quran or Hadith. The Prophet SAW did not mention mt Sinai here....he could easily have called it Mt sinai but didn't, reffering only to 'tur' which could of course mean any mountain.


Now what is also interesting is that you've said Isa AS would rule from someplace else.....not Jerusalem. That makes no sense whatsoever, he is first and foremost the messiah of Israel. Of course I could show you plenty of evidence from the old and new testament which tells us Isa AS will rule entirely from Jerusalem....especially because that was his wish. I just don't think you've read those texts (there are many, many and detailed aswell) such as Jesus coming with a new temple and a new jerusalem from heaven.

The Hadith do not mention this at all. So really there's no evidence anywhere suggesting he will rule from Medina or Mecca....and besides Mt sinai is still along way from Mecca and Medina.



To me, it is clear that there was no other book revealed which was inscribed on an unfolded scroll - but the original Turaat (Torah) which were given to Musa (AS).

You're wrong there..the book and the unfolded scroll refers to the Loh-e-Mahfooz.

Here's another interpretation

052.002
YUSUFALI: By a Decree inscribed
052.003
YUSUFALI: In a Scroll unfolded;

There's no evidence to suggest it's talking about the Torah....especially since the Quran always refers to the Torah as the Torah. It would say Torah....but it doesn't.

The Quran mentions this book numerous times

example

No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a DECREE (kitab) before We bring it into existence: That is truly easy for Allah.
Al-Hadid, Chapter #57, Verse #22


There are a number of verses mentioning the loh-e-mahfooz in the same way, ie the 'kitab'

Sorry for not explaining this clearly enough because i'm tired but you should get the picture.


I want you to remember this. Tur simply means Mountain, it can refer to any mountain.

Anyway, i'll just add again
the entire Hadith in question....which talks about Gog and Magog, is pretty much the same as the Ezekiel prophecy.....the only difference is the Hadith only mentions 'tur' (a mountain) whilst the book of Ezekiel mentions 'the mountains of israel' specifically. So ther's absolutely no reason for me to imagine all of this taking place in Arabia.
Plus the hadith also mentions Gog & Magog drinking up the water @ Sea of Gallilee...again it's proof that Gog and Magog will gather there to wage war against the people......not in Arabia.


Walaykum Salaam Bro Molvi

(smiles) I see you haven't yet lost your ability to throw insulting commentry towards those you rebuttle (charming)...

Now, to business... I do not bring my evidential analysis from texts which have been compromised by the men of of later times, like the book of ezekiel. The fact that you look to it for information can be commended, but it hardly makes your analysis correct now does it? Whereas I, am looking to the Quran, and Sunnah, as well as historical and archaeological proofs, you siimply look at documents. I have decided to use my mind and my heart to determine a better truth - sure, I can be wrong too, just like you. And I am willing to accept that I could be wrong. However, you seem to have a problem with it, and this is proven when you lose language like this:

molvicorleone wrote:
Salaam bro scimitar,

It seems to me you're another biased muslim who'll deny earth and heaven just to prove a pitiful point.


With regard to the Book that was written on a scroll unfolded, revealed on a mountain - was the loh e mahfooz revealed on a mountain?

As far as I am aware, the only scroll revealed on a mountain, my friend, is the Torah.

Again, the first three ayah of Surah At Tur (please read them slowly).

Surah At Tur. (Chapter: The Mountain)

1. By the (Mountain) at-Tur,
2. And by the Book inscribed,
3. (Which is) on an Unfolded Scroll,


Deduce from that and make the comparison, with regard to all three ayah, with the Torah, and then the loh e mahfooz...

Which one is it? I'd like you to elaborate on the book loh e nmahfooz, how it was revealed, where, under which circumstances, etc...

Thanking you in advance.

With regard to Isa (AS) / Yeshua / Jesus.... I could be wrong, I am trying to add some jigsaw pieces together, that is all. But you know? I could also be right? Accept it...

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Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:03 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
am looking to the Quran, and Sunnah, as well as historical and archaeological proofs

For what exactly?
You might find my manners a little insulting here but I really don't have a clue what you're getting at...

fyi, I've known Mt Sinai is in Saudiland, for around 3 years. What i'm talking about is the gathering of the people under Isa AS and i've shown you only a glimpse (ie the book of ezekiel)...which is very much connected and in-line with the Hadith. They both refer to the very same event, when Gog & Magog attack, are killed etc.....in the book of ezekiel we're told Gog & Magog will target Israel. In the hadith the lake of tiberias is mentioned......to me this again connects with event with Israel.....so why would Jesus be all the way over there in Saudi? makes no sense at all.

There is not a single ayat in the Quran or Hadith connected Isa AS with Mt sinai. The only argument you have comes down to nothing but semantics. Tur means Mountain. Prophet Mohammad SAW said the people would go to 'tur'..you've somehow decided it must always refer to Mt sinai.

What you've then done is used the Surah At-tur ie The Mountain....what have you used it for? to prove what? that 'THe Mountain' is reffering to Mt sinai....

but what does that have to do with Isa AS and that hadith we're talking about? Answer, nothing.....they just happen to both use the word 'Tur' and well.

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Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:48 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
I'm not placing as much importance on Isa (AS) ruling from Arabia as my the other points I am making Molve, I think you got the wrong end of the stick here, like totally...

My question to you in my last post still hasn't been asnwered, and yet again i find you ranting off about Isa (AS) not being connected to Sinai (in Arabia)... where did I say that historically, he was? I didn't... Now, If you can make fundamental errors of judgement when just reading posts, does that not leave you open to making even more errors when trying to make connections from other texts?

I find our debates quite engrossing, I must admit - which is why instead of just giving you my two dirhams worth, I also ask you a question or two, in the hope that you will answer them so I can get a better undestanding of what points you are trying to make.

I must admit, you have left me a little confused with your scanty method of approach, and therefore, unable to understand exactly what points you wish to raise...

Clarify for me, the following:

What is Loh e Mahfooz?
When was it revealed?
To whom?
Under which circumstances?
In what form was the original document?

These will do for now. I am trying to determine if At Tur is Sinai (as I believe) or if it some other mountain which has hijacked the title... just as the title of Sinai was hijacked and placed in Egypt...

Thanking you once again (hopefully not in vain this time) in advance.

Scimitar


Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:01 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
Scimitar wrote:
pass by `Isa and he will anoint their faces and inform them about their grades in Paradise.[/color] Shortly afterwards, while this is happening with `Isa, Allah will reveal to him, `I raised a people of My creation that no one can fight. Therefore, gather My servants to At-Tur (the mountain of Musa in Sinai). [color=#FFFF00]Then, Allah will raise Gog and Magog and they will swiftly swarm from every mound. Their front forces will reach Lake Tabariah (Sea of Galilee) and will drink all its water. The last of their forces will say as they pass by the lake, `This lake once had water!'



At first reading, anyone could have thought you are trying to make the connection of Isa with Mount Sinai, which the hadith here do not say it is Sinai. You deserved to be insulted Grrr :x

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005.118 (Jesus said) If Thou punish them, lo! they are Thy slaves, and if Thou forgive them (lo! they are Thy slaves). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, the Wise.


Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:30 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
You must be a moron, this is an excerpt from some text which I quoted... Troll on kid, lol.

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Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:15 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
It is an excerpt, but you left as it is without commenting on the blatant interpretation placed on it.

Maybe I am a moron, but with it I hope Allah may give me something else in return :)

regards

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005.117 I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.
005.118 (Jesus said) If Thou punish them, lo! they are Thy slaves, and if Thou forgive them (lo! they are Thy slaves). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, the Wise.


Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:06 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
helpme wrote:

Maybe I am a moron, but with it I hope Allah may give me something else in return :)

regards


Insha-Allah bro, even morons who troll others, deserve guidance...

Scimitar


Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:25 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
Scimitar wrote:
helpme wrote:

Maybe I am a moron, but with it I hope Allah may give me something else in return :)

regards


Insha-Allah bro, even morons who troll others, deserve guidance...

Scimitar

+1 :-)

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Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:40 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
bro scimitar, the problem with your question is you're asking me how Loh-e-mahfooz was REVEALED

can you tell me where the Ayat mentions anything to do with revelation? I know some english translations add Revelation (because really those translations have implied the mountain refers to Mt sinai....but it is not mentioned in Arabic. All it mentions is 'By The Mount'

Now here's another thing. This particular discussion is off-topic anyway....even IF Surah At-tur....The Mountain, is pointing towards Mt sinai it doesn't mean Isa AS will gather people there. That is the only thing i've disagreed with you on.

You and bro asralfarhi implied this in your earlier posts when somehow it was said (and not in these words)

'the site is so important to muslims that when Isa AS returns he will gather the people there' (and the hadith was then posted)

So all i'm doing is pointing out that the hadith just mentions 'mountain' and that can refer to any...but since it is a hadith essentially speaking of the second coming of Isa AS, Dajjal, Gog & Magog etc then it has an obvious connection to the Mt of Olives in Jerusalem which is also the location where he ascended to heaven, preached to his disciples, gave his sermon and also it's the place of the transfiguration (when he was transformed to light and Moses and Elijah (i think it was elijah) were seen with him. So all of this is just to show you the connection Isa AS has with that mountain, that is all. Using additional examples like the book of ezekiel is just to point out that historically the whole prophecy of Gog & Magog and the gathering of the people was meant to take place in Israel/jerusalem.


As foir hijacking of the name...there is no hijacking. The name At-tur could be given to any mountain.
You also were trying to show the connection between this Surah and the Torah...you did that by quoting the first 3 ayats....but seemed to ignore the rest, which show this ayat has nothing to do with the Torah or Mt sinai but just generally one of the typical Meccan Surahs which poetically speak of the Day of judgement. Obviously I know, that you know that....but you're probably just trying to show the connection between the first 3 verses. The problem again, with that is

There are many Surahs like it and i've noticed the translations differ a great deal quite often

example

The Pen

Nun. By the Pen and the (Record) which (men) write,-

Nun. [These letters (Nun, etc.) are one of the miracles of the Qur'an, and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings]. By the pen and by what they (the angels) write (in the Records of men).


I've also already said that the Torah is always reffered to as the Torah, not 'kitab' whereas there is at least one other ayat that i know of, mentioning 'kitab' and in it's context it's speaking of the Loh-e-mahfooz.....think about that?

Plus if you ask me, why this Surah mentioned 'The Mount' I would say it's because this surah is talking about the Day of judgement.....there are many surahs talking about the day when mountains will be made dust. The Surah also mentions the kitab and the sky...and that again is telling us 3 things

whatever is writen in the book (ie the loh-e-mahfooz) will come to pass
The mountains will crumble
the sky will be destroyed


just read this

1 By the Mount,
2 And a Scripture inscribed
3 On fine parchment unrolled,
4 And the House frequented,
5 And the roof exalted,
6 And the sea kept filled,
7 Lo! the doom of thy Lord will surely come to pass;
8 There is none that can ward it off.
9 On the day when the heaven will heave with (awful) heaving,
10 And the mountains move away with (awful) movement,

'roof' refers to the sky and then we're told 'the heaven will heave' 'the mountains will move away' (ie crumble).

Need i say more?

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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
*moved, reopened and bumped*

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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
Assalaam Alaikum bro Molvi.

You've known about Sinai being in Arabia for 3 yrs... I need your take on it. A very descriptive take on why you believe it was hidden from the masses of Christian and Jew pilgrims.

Please indulge me. As for the Loh e Mahfooz and the rest, not important atm - I get your point. The bigger point right now is the "why". I hope you can help me, it's important.

Scimi


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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
I have read somewhere also that when prophet Isa pbuh returns that he and the people with him shall escape from yajuj and majuj by going to the mountain to seek refuge while Allah will destroy yajuj wa majuj with parasitic worm (Biological warfare anyone) and some believe that this mountain to be turi sineen, am not sure what turi means but perhaps it has some link to the fact the Turaht came down in that spot that people through the ages started calling it turi, as for sineen it means many years or ages or epoch just like sana means one year in Arabic.

So perhaps there is some kind of link with turi sineen and Isa pbuh, but it could be just any mountain and not specifically turi sineen, but everyone in here agree's am sure that turi sineen is in Hijaz in the region of midain.

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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
Yes this is absolutely correct. I have lived near tabuk, KSA and have traveled the area of MADAIN, along the coast of buharah ul Aqabah, with my father who was a geologist. I absolutely concur with you that all of these monuments exists. I traveled this area when there were no restrictions. My father and myself went up Jabl al Laws, this mountain range stands out from the rest. The crust is black and very weak at some places, like burnt out charcoal.These days it is completely cut-off with barbed wires and military posts manned by white, caucasians (not saudi military). A lot of digging is also going on. So definitely something suspicious is going on and it is not under control of saudis.

Ali Al-Ghaban is an archeologist, came to our house many years ago and he said that no saudi is allowed to work in that area. Most people working there are either american or european (some are very likely to be jews) and work still continues to this day.

I except, when israel launches that big war that will expand its territory from river nile to euphrates, it will also takeover these KSA territories in the process.



Scimitar wrote:
The Real Mount. Sinai is in KSA? You decide...

I believe it is.



A three part series which proves that Sinai is in Arabia, this one is really well documented:





Let the debate begin.

Scimitar


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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
starfish wrote:
Yes this is absolutely correct. I have lived near tabuk, KSA and have traveled the area of MADAIN, along the coast of buharah ul Aqabah, with my father who was a geologist. I absolutely concur with you that all of these monuments exists. I traveled this area when there were no restrictions. My father and myself went up Jabl al Laws, this mountain range stands out from the rest. The crust is black and very weak at some places, like burnt out charcoal.These days it is completely cut-off with barbed wires and military posts manned by white, caucasians (not saudi military). A lot of digging is also going on. So definitely something suspicious is going on and it is not under control of saudis.

Ali Al-Ghaban is an archeologist, came to our house many years ago and he said that no saudi is allowed to work in that area. Most people working there are either american or european (some are very likely to be jews) and work still continues to this day.

I except, when israel launches that big war that will expand its territory from river nile to euphrates, it will also takeover these KSA territories in the process.


Darn those 'Nazis'.....! you gotta wonder where they dialed in the information to make the Indiana Jones movies. Thank you for this firsthand confirmation......so you actually been on top of 'jabal Musa'? Wow! I envy you brother.

About the coming 'takeover' a.k.a land grab, they've been putting this dream on paper:

Image
* not quite covering the Jabal Al-Lawz region due carving of the region with a ruler, but they're already there anyway.....

Oh btw, could you look up information regarding this whole region of Al-Lawz mountains gazetted as restricted military zone; something about a missile defense program. Missile defense system always give the tell tale hint of deep underground bases.


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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
It is my thinking, if jews have lived in that area, they would very much like to annex it and take it over from arabs. It looks obvious. All these landmarks in pictures have been seen by me and so i confirm that these very much exist. You should move your back, go and visit this area and confirm what i am saying here.



asralfarhi wrote:
starfish wrote:
Yes this is absolutely correct. I have lived near tabuk, KSA and have traveled the area of MADAIN, along the coast of buharah ul Aqabah, with my father who was a geologist. I absolutely concur with you that all of these monuments exists. I traveled this area when there were no restrictions. My father and myself went up Jabl al Laws, this mountain range stands out from the rest. The crust is black and very weak at some places, like burnt out charcoal.These days it is completely cut-off with barbed wires and military posts manned by white, caucasians (not saudi military). A lot of digging is also going on. So definitely something suspicious is going on and it is not under control of saudis.

Ali Al-Ghaban is an archeologist, came to our house many years ago and he said that no saudi is allowed to work in that area. Most people working there are either american or european (some are very likely to be jews) and work still continues to this day.

I except, when israel launches that big war that will expand its territory from river nile to euphrates, it will also takeover these KSA territories in the process.


Darn those 'Nazis'.....! you gotta wonder where they dialed in the information to make the Indiana Jones movies. Thank you for this firsthand confirmation......so you actually been on top of 'jabal Musa'? Wow! I envy you brother.

About the coming 'takeover' a.k.a land grab, they've been putting this dream on paper:

Image
* not quite covering the Jabal Al-Lawz region due carving of the region with a ruler, but they're already there anyway.....

Oh btw, could you look up information regarding this whole region of Al-Lawz mountains gazetted as restricted military zone; something about a missile defense program. Missile defense system always give the tell tale hint of deep underground bases.


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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
starfish wrote:
Yes this is absolutely correct. I have lived near tabuk, KSA and have traveled the area of MADAIN, along the coast of buharah ul Aqabah, with my father who was a geologist. I absolutely concur with you that all of these monuments exists. I traveled this area when there were no restrictions. My father and myself went up Jabl al Laws, this mountain range stands out from the rest. The crust is black and very weak at some places, like burnt out charcoal.These days it is completely cut-off with barbed wires and military posts manned by white, caucasians (not saudi military). A lot of digging is also going on. So definitely something suspicious is going on and it is not under control of saudis.

Ali Al-Ghaban is an archeologist, came to our house many years ago and he said that no saudi is allowed to work in that area. Most people working there are either american or european (some are very likely to be jews) and work still continues to this day.

I except, when israel launches that big war that will expand its territory from river nile to euphrates, it will also takeover these KSA territories in the process.


Finally, someone gets it... Congrats Starfish, you made my day. h, and I am totally impressed that you got to climb jabal Musa... WOW. Can you indulge us on the experience? I'm an historical romantic.

Scimi


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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
It was in 1988 that i went with my father. It was NOT a barbed area at that time. It is not a single mountain but a tall mountain range with few peaks, so you can track to the summit from various directions. The earth is dense charcoal looking but at places is very fragile. A part of the mountain ridge has collapsed, possibly because of internal fragility. Apart from this, there was nothing special. This is all i can re-call now. I feel it will be taken over by the coming wars in ME and this saudi government can hardly defend it, if atall.


Scimitar wrote:
starfish wrote:
Yes this is absolutely correct. I have lived near tabuk, KSA and have traveled the area of MADAIN, along the coast of buharah ul Aqabah, with my father who was a geologist. I absolutely concur with you that all of these monuments exists. I traveled this area when there were no restrictions. My father and myself went up Jabl al Laws, this mountain range stands out from the rest. The crust is black and very weak at some places, like burnt out charcoal.These days it is completely cut-off with barbed wires and military posts manned by white, caucasians (not saudi military). A lot of digging is also going on. So definitely something suspicious is going on and it is not under control of saudis.

Ali Al-Ghaban is an archeologist, came to our house many years ago and he said that no saudi is allowed to work in that area. Most people working there are either american or european (some are very likely to be jews) and work still continues to this day.

I except, when israel launches that big war that will expand its territory from river nile to euphrates, it will also takeover these KSA territories in the process.


Finally, someone gets it... Congrats Starfish, you made my day. h, and I am totally impressed that you got to climb jabal Musa... WOW. Can you indulge us on the experience? I'm an historical romantic.

Scimi


Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:06 pm
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Unread post Re: The REAL Mount Sinai
Salaams bro Scimitar, I didn't read the recent posts so I didn't see your question.

I say i've known about this for around 3 years. I was unaware until I actually read the Bible.

Here's what St Paul said (yes, i think he was a genuine guy and not the devil muslims think he is)

Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia



To answer your question really, it isn't just Christians/jews who believed Sinai was in Egypt but also muslims. They had no knowledge of this......as the Sinai region itself is called At-tur by muslims.

It's that simple. If you believe there is a great lie, then why is it when Christians watch the videos and actually learn about it.....they accept it? The ones who reject it, it's because they're brainwashed tools who hate 'arabia' but obviously many of them know what Paul said and since it confirms what he said.....they accept it easily.

I guess the jews at the time of the Prophet SAW knew

(2) Yahya related to me from Malik from Yazid ibn Abdullah ibn al-Had from Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn al-Harith at-Taymi from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Awf that Abu Hurayra said, "I went out to at-tur (Mount Sinai) and met Kab al Ahbar and sat with him. He related to me things from the Tawrah from a hadith

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:11 pm
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