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 The Ottamans!!!! 
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Unread post The Ottamans!!!!
These Muslims brought fear into the hearts of the European infidels !!!!
Once (and turkey still is) the greatest naval power in the Mediterranean
Conquering vast amounts of eastern Europe they brought Islam to Bulgaria present day Albania.

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Also the first Muslims to use the moon and crescent

The longest lasting empire after the Romans !!!!!

And most importantly my favorite historical empire !!!!


Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:02 pm
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
The best warriors ever.. after the early Arabs obviously ;)


Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:34 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
lol guys don't speak like that now some people will come out and say they (Ottomans) were intending to declare they're ceasers lol!

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Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:30 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Meryem wrote:
lol guys don't speak like that now some people will come out and say they (Ottomans) were intending to declare they're ceasers lol!


You think this is funny?

Instead of being demeaning, you should actually bother reading into your own history to find out the truth.

Read any book written on the Ottomans, either by Turkish or non-Turkish historians. I recommend anything written by Halil Inalcik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(title)

Ottoman Empire

Following his conquest of Constantinople in 1453, the victorious Ottoman sultan Mehmed II was the first of the rulers of the Ottoman Empire to assume the title "Caesar of the Roman Empire" (Ottoman Turkish Kayser-i-Rûm). Here, the Caesar title should not be understood as the minor title it had become, but as the glorious title of the emperors of the past, a connotation that had been preserved in Persian and Arabic. The adoption of the title also implied that the Ottoman state considered itself the continuation, by absorption, of the Roman Empire, a view not shared in the West. Acting in his capacity as Caesar of the Roman Empire, Mehmed reinstated the defunct Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.


You can also take a look at Fatih Sultan Mehment's Wiki page along with its citations - there are countless other online sources and written books that establish this fact.

Even so, I don't see why its so offensive. This is before the Ottoman Empire even assumed the Caliphate, so what if Fatih Sultan Mehmet was trying to continue another imperial legacy? He was still a great leader and statesman - I never denied that.


Last edited by Khorasani on Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:00 pm
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!


Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:32 pm
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Khorasani wrote:
Meryem wrote:
lol guys don't speak like that now some people will come out and say they (Ottomans) were intending to declare they're ceasers lol!


You think this is funny?

Instead of being demeaning, you should actually bother reading into your own history to find out the truth.

Read any book written on the Ottomans, either by Turkish or non-Turkish historians. I recommend anything written by Halil Inalcik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(title)

Ottoman Empire

Following his conquest of Constantinople in 1453, the victorious Ottoman sultan Mehmed II was the first of the rulers of the Ottoman Empire to assume the title "Caesar of the Roman Empire" (Ottoman Turkish Kayser-i-Rûm). Here, the Caesar title should not be understood as the minor title it had become, but as the glorious title of the emperors of the past, a connotation that had been preserved in Persian and Arabic. The adoption of the title also implied that the Ottoman state considered itself the continuation, by absorption, of the Roman Empire, a view not shared in the West. Acting in his capacity as Caesar of the Roman Empire, Mehmed reinstated the defunct Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.


You can also take a look at Fatih Sultan Mehment's Wiki page along with its citations - there are countless other online sources and written books that establish this fact.

Even so, I don't see why its so offensive. This is before the Ottoman Empire even assumed the Caliphate, so what if Fatih Sultan Mehmet was trying to continue another imperial legacy? He was still a great leader and statesman - I never denied that.


Demeaning? I think you need to mind what you say, now I don't see why a joke would be so offensive to make you assume such things about someone in this way. Yeah actually I thinks its pretty funny how you're "bashing" Ottoman cause they were sunni and they had the caliphate. Do not worry, I do read my history, read halil inalcık, and had been student of ilber ortaylı too. So I know ottoman wasn't perfect but wasn't what you're trying to portray either. Your hate is so visible from your lines and your intentions are pretty clear,and seeing you only into threads about ottoman says alot, so I am not willing to go into this with you. Just bear in mind that sectarian hate is not appreciated here, and you're being watched. Thanks. Wassalam

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Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:51 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Meryem wrote:
Yeah actually I thinks its pretty funny how you're "bashing" Ottoman cause they were sunni and they had the caliphate.


That is total BS and you know it. I would like to see proof of that I am doing this for any kind of sectarian reason. It's funny that you accuse me of making certain assumptions about someone else, but then you go on and do the same thing to me.

Why is it a hard thing for you to accept that the Caliphate, for most of its history, was a farce? With the exception of the first four caliphs, along with a couple of good rulers every now and then, it was a dynastic kingship that claimed an authority it never had the right to have. Doesn't matter whether it was the Umayyads, the Abbassids, the Ottomans, the Safavids (or any other so-called Shia dynasty).

The Muslim world, unfortunately, was never completely united at any point in time - you had several competing claims to the Caliphate throughout Muslim history. If that doesn't show that people were power hungry, I don't know what will.

This applies to all Islamic "empires" - if you're going to rule in the name of the Prophet (PBUH), I'm going to have certain expectations, and if I hear stories of a lack of Islam on the part of the so called "caliph", I'm going to have a problem.

Quote:
So I know ottoman wasn't perfect but wasn't what you're trying to portray either.


I said it in other thread - as soon as the Ottomans abandoned the true practice of Islam, and corruption seeped in, the Europeans exploited it. You think that if we held onto our religion, we would have ended up like this?

How did I try to portray the Ottomans? I said that they looked down on the Turks on Anatolia as uneducated and backward, which is a fact. Now, that doesn't mean that they didn't have their reasons, because a lot of these Turcoman tribes had caused trouble countless times. But it shows how the Ottomans gradually distanced themselves from their Turcoman roots - however, something like this is natural, as it happens with all empires.

You claim to have looked into the history - well, you clearly haven't looked deep enough. Anyone who has a solid grounding in Ottoman history would have known about the "Caesar" thing.

Quote:
Your hate is so visible from your lines and your intentions are pretty clear,and seeing you only into threads about ottoman says alot, so I am not willing to go into this with you. Just bear in mind that sectarian hate is not appreciated here, and you're being watched. Thanks. Wassalam


You're making absolutely baseless assumptions because, and you know nothing about me. To claim to know my intentions from lines on a message board is quite ridiculous itself.

I don't see how I could hate Sunnis when I've been around them all my life and I've been going to a Sunni mosque my whole life.

When I see crap about Osman Gazi being a descendent of Quraysh in a thread, you expect me to sit there and do nothing while people accept lies?

When people don't know that the Ottomans didn't get the Caliphate until Selim I, you think I'm not going to come out and say something?

The Ottomans didn't even become sectarian until Selim I, who launched a war against the Safavids. This battle was disastrous for the Ummah; instead of uniting, both the Ottomans and Safavids used madhabs for political reasons to wage a war against each other. Is this Islamic? You tell me.

When all the evils and ills are blamed on Ataturk, when the late Ottomans deserve a part of the blame, I'm not supposed to say anything? I wasn't trying to spread hate, I was just trying to separate fact from fiction. You're just bitter about that thread where I trashed Fethullah Gulen and Adnan Oktar, along with modern Turkey. I had my reasons for doing this, as I know Turkey well enough to do so, and instead of actually bringing up why I was wrong, you just resorted to another of your cheap, unfunny jokes.

I'm tired of Muslims whining and crying about the loss of the "Caliphate". It's gone, it's dead, and inshallah, there is something better on the way when Hz. Mahdi (AS) and Jesus (AS) arrive (whether or not we live to see it).

And for the record, I am proud of most of Ottoman history, but as I said, when you claim to be the Prophet's (PBUH) caliph, I am going to be very critical, and if I see some things that I find insulting to the Prophet's (PBUH) legacy, I am going to be harsh in my criticism.

Wasalaam.


Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:51 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Bro Khorasani, please do address you sister with some respect, this way you'll get a respectable reply back. Discussing such issues is already playing with fire, so the best way to deal with it is to know who you are speaking to and convince them (if you're right) with patience and respect. That's the high morals given by Prophet Muhammad Salallaho 'Alayhi wa Sallam, so we should be critical of ourselves first.

This applies to every member on the board, we don't want to have pages of arguments without anyone wanting to really listen and understand the other.

Insha 'Allah we can continue with respect.

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Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:25 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Brother Khurasani,

AlSalamu alaykum.

I have asked our sister not to respond to your post before you hear me out. So, here we go.

I have advised some people before and I now humbly advise you and all who join this forum to be patient with getting involved in the conversations. I always ask new members to go around this forum and learn about the nature of topics being discussed, the acceptable manners of discussions in here and, most importantly, people you want to discuss with. I believe it is just right to spend the first few days just getting to know the place and the people and then adding your own input to the debates. It is only annoying (and I am sorry to say this) to see someone you don't know, rushes in the forum shouting and screaming, even though they have a valid point. I am afraid to say that the general WUP community will not welcome such users. Even the most important message of the history would vanish in vein if it was forced in peoples ears and hearts, let alone a vague matter from history, which in no way benefits or harms us today.

"Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust."

I apologise in advance if bringing this up in public offends you in any way, but to be honest, I am tired of PM'ing people on this. However, I can still delete this if you insist.

Wassalam.

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Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:59 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Besides their name being "The Ottomans" they are actually just a family who are still alive today. Small detail to go by ;) And yes some of their members were masons but that doesn't that the whole damn empire was at that point in time, all together masonic (as Khorasani pointed that out quite good). It was a good, peaceful and just state that was a jewel of Islam and science (not that the two concepts differ imho).


Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:25 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
I wrote a whole section for my dissertation on the ottamans and its secular roots. When the Ottomans went into Europe, well some them wanted to implement the 'European' way of politics. This meant they wanted a parliament and removed the those who were deemed as religious and even holy ones. For me this clarifies that once you mix their ideas within what is religious and pure. These ideas act as a poison which contaminates the heavenly power manifested on the people who had not delved into anything but he power of belief.

In other words the Ottomans were powerful when their faith was strong. Then by implementing within it with 'European' and morover masonic ideas it crumbled. The Ottomans also show us why the Daj'al worshippers are making a humungus effort to cause rift between the believers.

There is a lot of evidence which shows that educational systems strive to be secular. They did this after the Ottomans in the Kemalist time. It is very clever to deprive a child from belief at an early age means the child is more likely to be secular. (And Allah guides whom he pleases). Which is also why children from a young age should be guided regarding things like the Prophets and the mercy of Allah.

A friend of mine went to a convent and she said, "The first things the nuns said to us was"..... "God does not stand there with a stick" :)
I think children have to be told about the love of Allah. Not alwyas saying things like ....... Thats a sin and you will be punished. When you love something you want to know more about it. When you don't you want to be away from it.


Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:33 pm
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Archimetaus wrote:
Brother Khurasani,

AlSalamu alaykum.

I have asked our sister not to respond to your post before you hear me out. So, here we go.

I have advised some people before and I now humbly advise you and all who join this forum to be patient with getting involved in the conversations. I always ask new members to go around this forum and learn about the nature of topics being discussed, the acceptable manners of discussions in here and, most importantly, people you want to discuss with. I believe it is just right to spend the first few days just getting to know the place and the people and then adding your own input to the debates. It is only annoying (and I am sorry to say this) to see someone you don't know, rushes in the forum shouting and screaming, even though they have a valid point. I am afraid to say that the general WUP community will not welcome such users. Even the most important message of the history would vanish in vein if it was forced in peoples ears and hearts, let alone a vague matter from history, which in no way benefits or harms us today.

"Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust."

I apologise in advance if bringing this up in public offends you in any way, but to be honest, I am tired of PM'ing people on this. However, I can still delete this if you insist.

Wassalam.


Wa Alaykum As-Salaam,

No offense taken brother. I understand your viewpoint and what you say is true.

This all began in other thread when I tried to clear up some misconceptions about Ottoman history, albeit a little forcefully. I was just tired of seeing people romanticize the history of the caliphate and ignore certain facts that may or may not be unsettling.

My other mistake was in overreacting to sister Meryem's "Caesar" joke. I thought she was poking fun and mocking one of my old posts where I was discussing the issue of Mehmet the Conqueror and "Caesar", but it turns out that it was just a harmless joke. Sometimes its hard to tell on a message board, but that's not an excuse. So for that, I am sorry.

My intention has never been to stir up any kind of sectarian hatred or "Sunni" bashing, as others have accused me of doing - may God punish me if I did such a thing. We are all Muslims here, and instead of bickering over tiny things that happened centuries ago, we should ideally be dissolving these differences and facing the coming threat together, hand in hand, united in faith and brotherhood.

My posts above will be the last time I will ever step out of my line. I apologize, and I look forward to participating in future discussions in a constructive manner.

Wasalaam.


Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:40 pm
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Khorasani wrote:
Wa Alaykum As-Salaam,

No offense taken brother. I understand your viewpoint and what you say is true.

This all began in other thread when I tried to clear up some misconceptions about Ottoman history, albeit a little forcefully. I was just tired of seeing people romanticize the history of the caliphate and ignore certain facts that may or may not be unsettling.

My other mistake was in overreacting to sister Meryem's "Caesar" joke. I thought she was poking fun and mocking one of my old posts where I was discussing the issue of Mehmet the Conqueror and "Caesar", but it turns out that it was just a harmless joke. Sometimes its hard to tell on a message board, but that's not an excuse. So for that, I am sorry.

My intention has never been to stir up any kind of sectarian hatred or "Sunni" bashing, as others have accused me of doing - may God punish me if I did such a thing. We are all Muslims here, and instead of bickering over tiny things that happened centuries ago, we should ideally be dissolving these differences and facing the coming threat together, hand in hand, united in faith and brotherhood.

My posts above will be the last time I will ever step out of my line. I apologize, and I look forward to participating in future discussions in a constructive manner.

Wasalaam.


Thank you for this response brother. I couldn't have wished for a response wiser than this.

"O our Lord! Forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in the faith, and put not into our hearts any rancour towards those who believe. O our Lord! Undoubtedly, you are the Beneficent the Merciful."

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:22 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
A good read on the Ottomans, particularly the Seljuks, can be found in The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf.

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Bro Achernahr turned me on to it.

Some were noble, some were not. Just as with all mankind.

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:46 am
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Unread post Re: The Ottamans!!!!
Assalamualaykum,
@Khorosani
Well yeah I was wrong to assume things about you but seeing you rushing into forums with a first post like that (which was edited by brother achernahr) then seeing you under topics only about ottoman made me think this way yet still was not right, I am sorry. There are other users who're sharing almost the same views with you but your way misleaded me and my unfunny cheap jokes was just to point out that way is somehow being offensive, they didn't mean any harm but unfortunatelly it appears that they went beyond their aims.
Now as for "Kayser-i Rum" issue it wasn't the title that I oppose but the intention which was related to that title, like continuing another legacy. Halil inalcık claims that was the intention whilst Ilber ortayli doesn't. Even historians differ in their views regarding the issue. So everyone has his/her own interpretation, and we can't claim any of them to be the exact truth. I understand your love and sensitivity towards ahl-i bayt and I appreciate that but you should bear in mind that being muslims we do love them too, maybe even more. And unlike you, I personally believe caliphate/imaamat had already ended with Imam Ali ra. so I was not defending caliphate of Ottoman, as I do not defend ummayad's or abbasid's. Just the idea of you attacking them only with this cause bothered me so I interfered. If you have shared your appreciation towards their other works in your earlier posts I'd understand you better, anyway Alhamdulillah we're settled.
One last thing I do not really care whatever you think or say about Fetullah Gulen or Adnan Oktar, they have many supporters to defend them already lol my reaction there was about claiming people do not live islam in Turkey. Well yeah that maybe what you observe from where you live but Alhamdulillah, being here I am seeing people esspecially youth are turning to islam day by day. My 14 year old sister is way more aware of her faith along with other issues than I was at 14. And she's just one of the many Alhamdulillah. May Allah lead us all to better, ameen.

@Archimetaus
Wise move as usual =) May Allah reward you and bless the ummah with more people like you, Ameen.

@Mortal
Thanks for the reminder akhi, Jazak Allah khairan

Wassalam =)

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:14 am
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