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 5 DEFINITE SIGNS: Shout, Pure Self, Yemani, Sufyani, Crack 
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
oceanmen wrote:
great topic
there are so many shia hadith that are extremely important, it seems i am rediscovering islam, or in other words (completing the lost half). i hope people start reading more and more so as to come closer to truth. its no coincidence that the first koranic word given to prophet mohamed (saw) by gibril was the word IQRA (READ).....look forward to the hadiths


i'll second that.

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غداً ألقى الأحبة ، محمداً وحزبه
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Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:33 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
ORGANICQAL wrote:
oceanmen wrote:
great topic
there are so many shia hadith that are extremely important, it seems i am rediscovering islam, or in other words (completing the lost half). i hope people start reading more and more so as to come closer to truth. its no coincidence that the first koranic word given to prophet mohamed (saw) by gibril was the word IQRA (READ).....look forward to the hadiths


i'll second that.


Definatly, I used to think I knew it all when I first ever converted then I saw i was being brainwashed like everyone else!

Sunnis taught me to hate Shia but when I actually READ for myself I found out the Shia are more authentic IMO. Good thing i'm just Muslim :P the truth is always in the middle anyway.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:40 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
ReAlLuMiNaTi wrote:
Sunnis taught me to hate Shia but when I actually READ for myself I found out the Shia are more authentic IMO. Good thing i'm just Muslim :P the truth is always in the middle anyway.


Sorry bro, but whoever told you to hate Shia (who are fellow Muslims) is not a true Sunni.

The Sunnah and Shia are the same Muslims. The Sunnah chose to take their Jurisprudence from Imams: Malik, Shafi'i, Hanafi and Hanbal, while the Shia chose to take their Jurisprudence from Imam Ali. They just followed different people after the Messenger.

The differences are insignificant.

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From Imam Ali (pbuhaf):

"He (Imam Mahdi - pbuhaf) will direct desires towards guidance while people will have turned guidance towards their desires, and he will turn their views to the Quran while the people will have turned the Quran to their views." [Peaks of Eloquence]

YOU MUST READ THIS - The WILL of our Holy Messenger!
The 5 Definite Signs
How to create a fake Imam Mahdi


Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:01 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
sayyid_haamid wrote:
ReAlLuMiNaTi wrote:
Sunnis taught me to hate Shia but when I actually READ for myself I found out the Shia are more authentic IMO. Good thing i'm just Muslim :P the truth is always in the middle anyway.


Sorry bro, but whoever told you to hate Shia (who are fellow Muslims) is not a true Sunni.

The Sunnah and Shia are the same Muslims. The Sunnah chose to take their Jurisprudence from Imams: Malik, Shafi'i, Hanafi and Hanbal, while the Shia chose to take their Jurisprudence from Imam Ali. They just followed different people after the Messenger.

The differences are insignificant.


Yeah man I totally agree with you.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:08 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
sayyid_haamid wrote:
I hope I misunderstood you, but did you mean that hadeeth (Sunnah) is are heresay?

How is it heresay when they have given us the signs of the arrival of Imam Mahdi and most have been fulfilled?

There are so many hadeeths that speak of the future and so many have happened.

So how can we ignore hadeets about the 5 signs which MUST happen?

You are free to make of this info what you desire. As I mentioned before, you can see it as general knowledge, you can see it as what the Shia hadeeths say, or what the family of the prophet have said etc...



Still the information that you got about it where spread oral way
(Again if it´s true that a Hadith is a Oral narrative about a subject).

So it´s hearsay. By any definition of it.
And that leeves a lot of room for missconseption.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:12 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
OxAbaRaM wrote:
Still the information that you got about it where spread oral way
(Again if it´s true that a Hadith is a Oral narrative about a subject).

So it´s hearsay. By any definition of it.
And that leeves a lot of room for missconseption.



No brother.

Hadeeth narrators used to take hadeeths from each other by writing down and double checking what they wrote.

Scholars spend 20+ years just learning these matters. Don't worry!

Also, if what you are saying is true, how do you explain all the hadeeths which speak of the future which have come true?

For example, did you know there's a hadeeth from Imam Ali about Brazil? That they will be World champions in Football (he described the game!).

How can we explain that?

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From Imam Ali (pbuhaf):

"He (Imam Mahdi - pbuhaf) will direct desires towards guidance while people will have turned guidance towards their desires, and he will turn their views to the Quran while the people will have turned the Quran to their views." [Peaks of Eloquence]

YOU MUST READ THIS - The WILL of our Holy Messenger!
The 5 Definite Signs
How to create a fake Imam Mahdi


Last edited by sayyid_haamid on Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:24 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
Really? I would love to see that hadith.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:30 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
sayyid_haamid wrote:
OxAbaRaM wrote:
Still the information that you got about it where spread oral way
(Again if it´s true that a Hadith is a Oral narrative about a subject).

So it´s hearsay. By any definition of it.
And that leeves a lot of room for missconseption.



No brother.

Hadeeth narrators used to take hadeeths from each other by writing down and double checking what they wrote.

Scholars spend 20+ years just learning these matters. Don't worry!

Also, if what you are saying is true, how do you explain all the hadeeths which speak of the future which ave become true?

For example, did you know there's a hadeeth from Imam Ali about Brazil? That they will be World champions in Football (he described the game!).

How can we explain that?


If i´m not mistaken in the Islam religion if a hadith is not backed up by a Qu´ranic sura, then "trow the Hadith against the wall".

And I don´t recall reading a Sura where Muhammed plays football.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:46 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
What are talking about that means we should believe the dajjal is coming because he does not exist the quran. some stuff allah has mentioned in the quran some stuff he mentioned in the sunna


Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:06 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
OxAbaRaM wrote:
If i´m not mistaken in the Islam religion if a hadith is not backed up by a Qu´ranic sura, then "trow the Hadith against the wall".

And I don´t recall reading a Sura where Muhammed plays football.


From Imam Ali: "...and there is nothing superceding the will of Allah (swt) with a nation, whom have a great river called Amazon... and opression will cause fitna in an era, and will spread poverty in their land, and they will not be known by name except in the released game, in which it's men play behind something like a manyfold [enlargement] of an Ostrich's egg, a ball of skins. For this they will assign banners/flags and play music and dance..."

From: ماذا قال علي عن آخر الزمان (What Imam Ali said about the end of time)

The author mentioned that Brazil is meant here - they have a great river in the Amazon forest - the Amazon River. Imam Ali described the Football as being like an Ostrich's egg - because it is the only egg which is round like a ball - and also, todays Footballs are made from skins as the Imam described.

Sorry for my mistake earlier - I said the Imam said they will be champions - he said they will be known by the game. Sorry about that. :oops:

In any case, you can see the remarkable accuracy of what the Imam said. Keep in mind he lived 1400 years ago. If it was heresay, how do you explain this hadeeth?

And Yes. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, there are countless hadeeths from the Shia Imams that say say: “Whatever you hear from us (i.e. someone told you he heard from me...), then exhibit it on the Qur’an. If the Qur’an confirms it, then it is from us, if the Qur’an rejects it, then it is not from us and you should throw this hadeeth at the wall."(i.e. rejects it).

_________________
From Imam Ali (pbuhaf):

"He (Imam Mahdi - pbuhaf) will direct desires towards guidance while people will have turned guidance towards their desires, and he will turn their views to the Quran while the people will have turned the Quran to their views." [Peaks of Eloquence]

YOU MUST READ THIS - The WILL of our Holy Messenger!
The 5 Definite Signs
How to create a fake Imam Mahdi


Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:07 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
I still don´t recall any Qu´ranic Sura mentioning football or the Amazon River.


Sorry.


Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:12 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
abujamila wrote:
What are talking about that means we should believe the dajjal is coming because he does not exist the quran. some stuff allah has mentioned in the quran some stuff he mentioned in the sunna



Only Qu´ran is considered to be Allah´s word, sunna is just a guidence tool.

If i recall corectlly.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:15 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
This is what the Qur'an has to say about hadeeths:
"Nor does he speak out of desire.
It is naught but revelation that is revealed"


Sunnah is the word of the Infallible Messenger. The word of the infallible is truth (it is revelation - so it's the word of Allah by the tongue of the Messenger).

Football doesn't appear in the Qur'an - I don't understand what you mean by this? The hadeeth is correct spot on. It also doesn't appear in the Qur'an how many times you should pray - or how to pray.

Remember dear brother, that hadeeths are to be thrown at the wall if they contradict the qur'an - otherwise we don't throw them.

_________________
From Imam Ali (pbuhaf):

"He (Imam Mahdi - pbuhaf) will direct desires towards guidance while people will have turned guidance towards their desires, and he will turn their views to the Quran while the people will have turned the Quran to their views." [Peaks of Eloquence]

YOU MUST READ THIS - The WILL of our Holy Messenger!
The 5 Definite Signs
How to create a fake Imam Mahdi


Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:45 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
OxAbaRaM, how did the quran reach you? Do u know the history of compilation of quran? It reached us the same way the hadiths reached us. First it was memorized by ppl in their heart and it was written afterwards. If you say hadith to be hearsay how can u believe in the quran? Quran and Hadith were both delivered from the same mouth (the mubarak mouth of our prophet s.a.w.) and were heard by the same ears (the mubarak ears of the sahaba r.a.a.), memorized in the same hearts(of the sahaba). how can u believe one to be true and the other to be hearsay?


Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:55 am
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
Yes thank you brother bindasbanda.

_________________
From Imam Ali (pbuhaf):

"He (Imam Mahdi - pbuhaf) will direct desires towards guidance while people will have turned guidance towards their desires, and he will turn their views to the Quran while the people will have turned the Quran to their views." [Peaks of Eloquence]

YOU MUST READ THIS - The WILL of our Holy Messenger!
The 5 Definite Signs
How to create a fake Imam Mahdi


Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:04 pm
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
sayyid_haamid wrote:
OxAbaRaM wrote:
If i´m not mistaken in the Islam religion if a hadith is not backed up by a Qu´ranic sura, then "trow the Hadith against the wall".

And I don´t recall reading a Sura where Muhammed plays football.


From Imam Ali: "...and there is nothing superceding the will of Allah (swt) with a nation, whom have a great river called Amazon... and opression will cause fitna in an era, and will spread poverty in their land, and they will not be known by name except in the released game, in which it's men play behind something like a manyfold [enlargement] of an Ostrich's egg, a ball of skins. For this they will assign banners/flags and play music and dance..."

From: ماذا قال علي عن آخر الزمان (What Imam Ali said about the end of time)

The author mentioned that Brazil is meant here - they have a great river in the Amazon forest - the Amazon River. Imam Ali described the Football as being like an Ostrich's egg - because it is the only egg which is round like a ball - and also, todays Footballs are made from skins as the Imam described.

Sorry for my mistake earlier - I said the Imam said they will be champions - he said they will be known by the game. Sorry about that. :oops:

In any case, you can see the remarkable accuracy of what the Imam said. Keep in mind he lived 1400 years ago. If it was heresay, how do you explain this hadeeth?

And Yes. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, there are countless hadeeths from the Shia Imams that say say: “Whatever you hear from us (i.e. someone told you he heard from me...), then exhibit it on the Qur’an. If the Qur’an confirms it, then it is from us, if the Qur’an rejects it, then it is not from us and you should throw this hadeeth at the wall."(i.e. rejects it).



assalamo alaykom,

First, I'm glad that this discussion has remained at a high level of respect and people are keeping an open mind, and sharing their views.

And I'd like to share mine.

Only Prophets(pbut) are given knowledge of future events, no relatives or sahaba were ever given knowledge of the future. And this is why I'm rejecting the above hadith, because it puts Ali(ra) at a Prophet status.

This might be viewed as something minor by some, but for me, it elevates someone to a status, whomever then are, Allah(swt) did not intend for them to have. Knowledge of the future is with Allah alone, and is given to whomever Allah chooses, from amongst his Prophets(pbut).

Whether you consider your school of thought to be Sunni or Shia, there is no room for exaggerations in Islam when it comes to Allah's(swt) religion.

Cheers.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:12 pm
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
Bushwack wrote:


assalamo alaykom,

First, I'm glad that this discussion has remained at a high level of respect and people are keeping an open mind, and sharing their views.

And I'd like to share mine.

Only Prophets(pbut) are given knowledge of future events, no relatives or sahaba were ever given knowledge of the future. And this is why I'm rejecting the above hadith, because it puts Ali(ra) at a Prophet status.

This might be viewed as something minor by some, but for me, it elevates someone to a status, whomever then are, Allah(swt) did not intend for them to have. Knowledge of the future is with Allah alone, and is given to whomever Allah chooses, from amongst his Prophets(pbut).

Whether you consider your school of thought to be Sunni or Shia, there is no room for exaggerations in Islam when it comes to Allah's(swt) religion.

Cheers.

I agree with this. As much as I have respect for Ali (ra) and as much as a role model he is to me, I can't take his words as prophecy. I will only believe it if he narrates it on behalf of the prophet and its backed up.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:24 pm
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
bindasbanda wrote:
OxAbaRaM, how did the quran reach you? Do u know the history of compilation of quran? It reached us the same way the hadiths reached us. First it was memorized by ppl in their heart and it was written afterwards. If you say hadith to be hearsay how can u believe in the quran? Quran and Hadith were both delivered from the same mouth (the mubarak mouth of our prophet s.a.w.) and were heard by the same ears (the mubarak ears of the sahaba r.a.a.), memorized in the same hearts(of the sahaba). how can u believe one to be true and the other to be hearsay?



It´s simple. When i read Qu´ran my paranoia receptors don´t get fired up.
So i take it as a truthfull meanningfull thing.

Whit Hadiths, not all of them, is a different story. My paranoia receptors get so fired up by some of them that i get insomnia, sometimes for days.

So you could say i can smell a lie.

And i´m conviced that submission (Islam) needs only Qu´ran, Qu´ran kinda explains himself.


@saayid
Well, your school of Islamic tought teaches you that a Hadith is only true when it´s backed up by Qu´ran.
So hadith about football; no football in Qu´ran= not true.
If you look at the matter whit some logic.

Maybe i missunderstood, in that case i apologies.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:26 pm
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
OxAbaRaM so you say that the mahdi shall not come because he is not mentioned in the quran


Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:28 pm
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Unread post Re: DEFINITE SIGNS: Yemani Sufyani Shout Nafs Zakyeh Bayda C
OxAbaRaM wrote:
bindasbanda wrote:
OxAbaRaM, how did the quran reach you? Do u know the history of compilation of quran? It reached us the same way the hadiths reached us. First it was memorized by ppl in their heart and it was written afterwards. If you say hadith to be hearsay how can u believe in the quran? Quran and Hadith were both delivered from the same mouth (the mubarak mouth of our prophet s.a.w.) and were heard by the same ears (the mubarak ears of the sahaba r.a.a.), memorized in the same hearts(of the sahaba). how can u believe one to be true and the other to be hearsay?



It´s simple. When i read Qu´ran my paranoia receptors don´t get fired up.
So i take it as a truthfull meanningfull thing.

Whit Hadiths, not all of them, is a different story. My paranoia receptors get so fired up by some of them that i get insomnia, sometimes for days.

So you could say i can smell a lie.

And i´m conviced that submission (Islam) needs only Qu´ran, Qu´ran kinda explains himself.


@saayid
Well, your school of Islamic tought teaches you that a Hadith is only true when it´s backed up by Qu´ran.
So hadith about football; no football in Qu´ran= not true.
If you look at the matter whit some logic.

Maybe i missunderstood, in that case i apologies.


assalamo alaykom bro,

The scale or judgment you have put forth is not accurate, or is not considered by scholars to weigh falsehood, from truth. There are many things mentioned in the Hadith, that are not necessarily mentioned in the Quran, and that does not disqualify them as falsehood.

There was one Ali(ra) and there will only be one Ali(ra), and his status is indeed honorable, but he's still not a Prophet. So there was no way for him to know the unknown, unless Prophet Mohammad(pbuh), had revealed it to him.

And since there is no Hadith of the Prophet(pbuh) ever mentioning the above Hadith, whether from Shia or Sunni sources, it can't be accepted.

Cheers.


Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:37 pm
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