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 Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts? 
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Unread post Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
I just want to know the opinions of people on this forum regarding this question. I hear some Muslims quoting hadith as if they were infallible, and others trying to reinterpret hadith in order to filter out what really happened.

In the end, it gets confusing.

Thanks.


Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:34 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
If it is hadith sahih then it is accurate because it has been carried to our generation in nearly the same way as the Quran especially sahih bukhari through isnad


Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:05 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Salaam.... Yes we do believe in hadith being correct and hadith do help us in understanding many of the Quranic Verses as well. Hadith have been compiled through Science of Hadith, called Ilm Al Rijal, throughout history. We use them also to understand many historical accounts explained in the Words of Prophet (saw) as well his Sahabas (r.a), whether they are during the Life of Prophet (saw) or prior to his coming. But others who use hadith to hide facts is definitely not the right way to use hadith.

But when you study Hadith with Quran, then if the Quranic Verse says something and the hadith confirms what the Verse says and explains the Verse , then we accept that hadith. Thats what Scholars of Islam do. But if the Hadith mentions something which is totally against what Quran says, then that hadith is not accepted and it should not be used to understand Quran etc.

Others please give your point of view... Salaam.


Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:10 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
syed_z wrote:
But when you study Hadith with Quran, then if the Quranic Verse says something and the hadith confirms what the Verse says and explains the Verse , then we accept that hadith. Thats what Scholars of Islam do. But if the Hadith mentions something which is totally against what Quran says, then that hadith is not accepted and it should not be used to understand Quran etc.


Agreed. That should be the overall criteria since we know that the Qur'an has the authority over any other text out there. As long as a hadith does not go in a different direction than any of the verses in the Qur'an, then it should be fine.

Thanks


Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:16 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
If the hadith goes along with what the Quran says, its real.
The Quran Should be our 1st source.

And nothing is 100%, just the Quran.


Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:16 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
more muslims spent time on hadiths rather than the qu'ran... the only real truth is the qu'ran not hadiths.. but many take them as absolute truth rather than the qu'ran..


Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:57 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Can anyone say in which year the first hadith book was written?


Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:50 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Hadith are judged as accurate if there is a proven trail leading from the person who quoted it back to the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

Many Hadith have been disproven due to questionable sources - where a person has simply made up the quotation or story.

We should let the scholars do their thing and trust what they say in most cases.

However as good as they are we have to remember that Hadith originate from 1400 years ago and have been passed on by word of mouth in the early stages.

The Quran is flawless - but where men start to get involved that's where things can go wrong - some men will manipulate and lie in order to further their own agendas or for some sort of family pride/prestige. That's the sad truth of the matter.

What that leads to is the possibility, and see that I said possibility, that some Hadith may not be accurate.

Then it is up to us to use our common sense, and think objectively what the right thing to do regarding a subject is.


Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:08 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Geert wrote:
Can anyone say in which year the first hadith book was written?


The Prophet's time. Most were burned though...


As for hadeeth criteria - scholars spend decades studying hadeeths.

It's not simple at all.

Theres Ilmul Rijal - the chain of narrators (they study the lives of the people who transmitted the hadeeths and make decisions as to their reliability etc...)

They study the "matn" - the content of the hadeeth - whether it applies to or contradicts the Qur'an, whether it contradicts other strong hadeeths, whether it is backed by other hadeeths, any grammatical errors, etc...

Sometimes a hadeeth has a very strong chain - but contradicts the Qur'an.

Sometimes, a hadeeth has a very weak (or no chain) - but is 100% correct.

Recently, Allamah Al-Askari wrote a book called "120 Sahabi" - in which he proves that 120 Sahaba characters never existed - and have been made up as hadeeth transmitters by those who tried to infiltrate Islam.

Scholars spend decades studying hadeeths, and different scholars have different opinions on some hadeeth issues.

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From Imam Ali (pbuhaf):

"He (Imam Mahdi - pbuhaf) will direct desires towards guidance while people will have turned guidance towards their desires, and he will turn their views to the Quran while the people will have turned the Quran to their views." [Peaks of Eloquence]

YOU MUST READ THIS - The WILL of our Holy Messenger!
The 5 Definite Signs
How to create a fake Imam Mahdi


Last edited by sayyid_haamid on Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:12 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Salam,

This is a very heavy topic, that has been debated endlessly amongst scholars. Scholars still debate the accuracy of some of the Hadiths, and you'll find some disagreements amongst them, on various issues. Is AlBukhari and Muslim infallible, the answer is a resounding no.

Sometimes there is even a conflict between the 2 volumes of Hadiths, for example AlBukhari will have 8 Hadiths that conflict with one Hadith from Muslim. It's obvious then which one is the more accurate source, and so on.

But the collectors of the Hadith, them selves stated that if any of the Hadiths are found to be proven inaccurate within the volumes, then they're to be thrown against a wall.

Some people chose to ignore the Hadith all together, and rely solely on the Quran, but surly that doesn't make any sense, because without some Hadiths, we would be left in the dark on various issues.


Here is an example of some conflicting narrations which are found in AlBukhari, and are still deemed as accurate to this very day.



Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:17 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
But does the God not in the Quran say not to follow anything of which you do not have proof? No one doubts the quran...


Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:30 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Allah in the o=gives us an order in the in the Quran to follow him and his prophet. Although hadiths cannot be taken as a 100 % but if they are authentice. for example what we say and do in prayer is what we took from the prophet


Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:27 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
(Surah An-Nisa: 64)

We sent not a prophet, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah.

And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah.}[al-Hashr; 7]

O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.
[The Noble Qur'an 4:59]

these are versuse from the Quran ordering us to obey the prophet


Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:39 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
found another verse

O those who believe. Fear Allah and say what is correct so that it fits you. He will forgive your sins. Whoever obeys Allah and His messenger that is a great achievement (33:70-71).


Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:45 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Salaam Brother Geert :) ... brother Abujamila quoted Verses that say we supposed to follow the sayings of the Prophet. Just to let you know that Study of the Hadith was being done at the time of Prophet (saw)... the hadith were being written at the time of Muhammad (saw)....


Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:25 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Brother, I had a bit of a detailed discussion with two members about Hadeeths. It's here if you like to see it:

Subject: cover my face?


A few verses on that thread:

sayyid_haamid wrote:

...

...and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil) [59:7]

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. [4:59]

"Refer it to Allah" - means to the Qur'an
"and to the Messenger" - means to the Sunnah (he's not alive now is he?)

Nor does he speak out of desire.
It is naught but revelation that is revealed
[53:3-4]

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. [33:36]

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. [4:80]

These are just a few I remembered now - there's too many.

...

The will of our Holy Messenger:
"I leave amongst you two heavy things, the book of Allah (swt) and my Sunnah/family. If you hold tightly to them both you will never be lead astray".



I hope that helps.

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From Imam Ali (pbuhaf):

"He (Imam Mahdi - pbuhaf) will direct desires towards guidance while people will have turned guidance towards their desires, and he will turn their views to the Quran while the people will have turned the Quran to their views." [Peaks of Eloquence]

YOU MUST READ THIS - The WILL of our Holy Messenger!
The 5 Definite Signs
How to create a fake Imam Mahdi


Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:59 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Salaam--

Allah SWT knows best! All I know are these facts:
1) Allah SWT made Noble Qur'an detailed, with no contradictions and nothing missing out of it that needs mention (see Qur'an about this)
2) In the Holy Qur'an, Prophet Muhammad savs is instructed to deliver the message and is told to tell believers that he is not there to predict future or such, but only to deliver The Message (see Qur'an again)
3) In the Noble Qur'an it is said that The Holy Qur'an is the Best Hadith
4) The hadith collections were not written until 200 years later as opposed to the Holy Qur'an which has been written during its delivery to the people (evidence coming from the Holy Qur'an where it is mentioned that the leaves with its writings are touched only by those who are clean).

So, do research and make your own conclusions.
I think that the hadith have good teachings and advice. But, many of them contradict the Holy Qur'an.
I myself am conflicted about what to believe in the hadiths and what not to. But, according to my research all evidence points back to the Holy Qur'an as being the perfect islamic source for our faith and not the hadiths.
But, Allah SWT knows best.

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Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:47 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
if our ulema today can be bought by their leaders and can change/add/hide some of the religious knowledge so as to match the modern world...it means there is a lot of deception and corruption

in this case it is easy to assume that everyone agrees that the koran is the only reliable words.

as for hadith there are two schools, one claims that some hadith is authentic and some are not, these first follow some and avoid the others. the second school claims all hadith are not authentic and they are best observed without seeing them as absolute truth.

We have two choices:
Either we read all hadith, and from our intuition and Quranic knowledge we can sense to what extent a hadith makes sense or does not make sense...this way we incrrease our knowledge...just like reading the bible and whatever matches the koran is considered authentic....

Or we can focus on a limited number of hadith and follow them along with the Quran so as to avoid confusion....

The choice is yours......and Allah knows best

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Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:49 pm
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
I generally do not accept Fiqh or laws from hadith.
But accept any type of hadith, weak or strong, if it makes sense.
In light of the Quran, it makes sense.
So you look at hadith through light of Quran, and then the hadiths will "Feel" good or useful to you, and other hadiths are basic and not very helpful, and some are contradictory.
I do not put Hadith anywhere near level of Quran, or even observing the world around me. But sometimes you get some real gems, with some pearls of wisdom in them, these ones are the most likely from the prophet.
The ones with multiple levels of meaning, and obviously intelligently spoken.


Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:20 am
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Unread post Re: Can we rely on Hadith for accurate historical accounts?
Salaam Amica.. hope you and yours are doing Fine :)...

Quote:
2) In the Holy Qur'an, Prophet Muhammad savs is instructed to deliver the message and is told to tell believers that he is not there to predict future or such, but only to deliver The Message (see Qur'an again)
3) In the Noble Qur'an it is said that The Holy Qur'an is the Best Hadith
4) The hadith collections were not written until 200 years later as opposed to the Holy Qur'an which has been written during its delivery to the people (evidence coming from the Holy Qur'an where it is mentioned that the leaves with its writings are touched only by those who are clean).


Salaam Brother Oceanmen and Shamz

"Hadith were the Messenger's words and not Allah's Words" by keeping these words in their heads, many in the Ummah, who then go so far, that they reject all the Hadith which keeps them away from such knowledge which is very important. Their suspicion about the Hadith keeps them away. For example Dajjal is only mentioned in Hadith and no where in Quran, even though it is the Biggest Trial Mankind would ever face. We've been able to understand his System only through the Hadith.

The Hadith Rejectors are the ones who have put the claim forward that "Hadith were written 200 years after the death of Muhammad (saw)" (Not pointing towards you Amica)... these words of theirs have affected many in the Ummah to have second thoughts about hadith and then they end up either joining these Hadith Rejectors, who are also known as Ahle Quran (People of the Quran), or they just reject and stop giving importance to hadith. Also because Imam Al Mahdi is mentioned in Hadith and not in Quran, sometimes i have to argue with many of my relatives, who consider themselves "liberal" , that Hadith are fabricated or not authentic or they were written 3rd century Hijrah.

Just to let you know of What beliefs these Quranists have will help us understand their faults...they fall in to 3 categories...

1st of them say "The job of the Prophet was to deliver the Quran. We are to follow only Quran and nothing else, as were the Companions. Fuethur, Hadith is not needed to understand the Quran, which is sufficient for providing Guidance.

2nd Group says... "Companions were supposed to follow the Prophet (saw) we're not".

3rd says "In theory we have to follow the Hadith but we did not receive hadith through authentic sources and therefore we have to reject the Hadith Collections!"


How could they hold the 1st position and yet profess belief in Quran when it says...

And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. (16:44)

The Hadith are mirror of Prophet hood.

The 2nd position that they have that limiting the Prophet hood to only 23 years and yet profess in the Belief in the Quran....

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind (34:28)
...

They also say like "Quran are Allah (swt) words but are the words of Muhammad (saw) infallible as Allah's words ?"

The Hadith rejectors forget how we received the Quran, it was transmitted by the same ones who transmitted to us the Hadith. If we rely on those channels for Allah's Words so should we rely on those for Muhammad (saw) words. Even though there were also many fabrications found but those compared to the Large Numbers are very few!
Many facts about the hadith which Muslims even up till today don't know...

Now were the Hadith being Written in the 1st Year Hijrah ? Yes!





Sahifah Hammam ibn Munabbih The Earliest Extant Work On The Hadith [A collection of Hadith]
is perhaps one of the earliest known hadith collections, by 8th century AD scholar Hammam ibn Munabbih. It has been translated in the 20th century by Muhammad Hamidullah (He was a world-renowned Muhaddith, Faqih and scholar of Islam and International Law from Pakistan, was awarded Hilal-e-Imtiaz in Pakistan). Hammam Ibn Munabbih was the student (tabi'in) of the Sahaba, Abu Huraira (r.a), the famous hadith transmitter. Dr Hamidullah published this Sahifa (scriptures) of Hammam around 1979, which was existing from the time of 1st year Hijrah, in Pakistani News papers, and it proves that hadith were collected in the Mid 1st century Hijrah. These hadith were also compared by some of the Westerners, by R. M. Speight, "A Look At Variant Readings In The Hadith" one of his books , in which he said about these hadith "... the texts in Hammam and those recorded in Ibn Hanbal, Bukhari and Muslim with the same, chain of narrators, show almost complete identity, except for a few omissions and interpolations which do not affect the sense of the reports". The Hadith from that 1st year Hijrah scripture was compared in this 20th Century and guess what ? Not an iota of difference! This also explains well that Hadith being copied from early years up till today, through Science of Hadith (Ilm Al-Rijal) do not have any corruption at al either. Abu Huraira (R.A) had opened a school where 800 students came and studied Hadith.

The Musannaf of Abdul Razzaq, also collected during the 1st yr Hijrah. "Studies in Hadith Methodology & Literature" A book by Dr Mustafa Azami, has shown that many hundreds of booklets of Hadith were compiled during the 1st century Hijrah. Anas Bin Malik (r.a) the famous hadith transmitter not only recorded the Hadith but also presented to Muhammad (saw) and got corrections.

I would also like to quote a hadith which proves that everything was being written down at the time of Muhammad (saw)....

Sayyidina Abdullah Ibn Amr (R.A) reports "I used to write everything i heard from the Messenger (saw) as i wanted to Preserve it. The Quraish forbade me, saying 'Do you write down everything that you hear (from him) and The Messenger is a human being who sometimes speaks in anger and joy? (that is that he may say something emotionally that may not be worth writing). So i stopped. Then i mentioned this to Allah's Messenger (saw). He pointed with his finger to his mouth and said "Write! By the One in Whose Hand is My Life! Nothing comes out of it (His Mouth) except the Truth!" [Sunan Abu Daud of Imam Abu Daud, Hadith #3161]
Abdullah Ibn Amr (R.A) compiled a Hadith book named "Sahifa Sadiqa", which had 1000 saying of the Messenger (saw).

This All that i have mentioned above, happened in the 1st yr Hijrah, when Prophet (saw) migrated to Madinah. This hadith shows that words of Muhammad (saw) are as important and at least as much as the words of Allah (swt) because , why would Quran says...

Surah Nisa Ayat 80

Whosoever Obeys the Prophet (actually) Obeys Allah (swt)...


Now to the Root of All the Hadith Rejection....

During Colonial Period when most of the Muslims came under control of the West, some "scholars" or so called scholars arose in Muslim world, like in Egypt (Taha Hussein), India (Abdullah Chakralawi and Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz) and Turkey (Zia Gokalp), who began questioning if the Hadith were right. These people and people like them are not genius to find such faults suddenly in Hadith, which the 13 centuries of Our Ummah were not able to. The pressures came from Dominant West! These things were aroused in the Ummah, by the West, so we would loose and have doubts about the knowledge of Hadith, then we would be away from the Real Source of Guidance! Another factor very important that people, who reject Hadith do not have knowledge of Science of Hadith or Collection and are not aware of the Hadith Collection of 1st Yr Hijrah that i've mentioned above.

So these are the things every one of us should be aware of, these are some facts about Hadith.


Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:54 pm
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